Not so. According to our By-Laws, the board sets the pastor's salary. I have no relatives who serve on the board. I have never read in ANY IRS publication stating that there has to be an independent financial committee to set salaries. As President of the corporation, our By-Laws state that I set the salaries of my employees and the board sets my salary. We have always been IRS compliant since I have been pastor. Our accountant is an Enrolled Agent with the IRS and handles the finances of many ministries and that has never come up.
Also don't forget that your bylaws were set up through an agency of your state requiring that they comply with state regulations, not that they confirm to IRS code. These are two different agencies with their own specification. Your exempt status comes through the IRS your corporate status comes through the state.
Cindy,
WE also started a home mission church and we worked and paid the church bills also. I am not holding onto the past, and I have paid my dues on both sides of the fence. God's servants are not who I am judging - it is those who gamble in the church when ministering would be more appropriate.
Blessings, Rhoni
I know you did, but you sure bring it up a lot. I understand, it is a touchy subject though.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Church spent too much time taking up offerings and likely didnt do it right.
Pastor is (according to Rhoni) worth of his hire.
Before I would be willing to comment here, i want to know if this kind of action would have happened if the pastor was at the service?
One time my pastor went out of town and the fellow left in charge did some things that insured he was never left in charge again.
Did a mistake happen here? Sure looks like it. Was it a function of the way this church operates or was it a function of inexperienced or unthinking people being left to handle things in the pastors absence?
I think these are important questions before skewering these folk.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I walked out of a camp meeting service at the UPC Buckeye Lake campground a couple years ago (2006, I think). I was really looking forward to hearing some good preaching. Unfortunately, what I got after the choir was about 20 minutes (before I left) of hard-core, shake-down offering. The extortioner got up and said that no one is to leave while "we take up the offering." He then proceeded to say that he wasn't finished until they had $50,000 to pay for some nonsense that I can't recall. He had people stand up who would donate $5,000, then worked his way down from there. One man stood up and offered $250 and was told that he was looking for more right now. "We'll get to your (paltry) gift level later." Not wanting to make a spectacle of myself, I sat there for around 20 minutes. When the man giving $250 was rebuked for interrupting when he was looking for more, I had enough. I stood up, looked at my wife and family, told them we're leaving and walked out. I've never been back and will never go back. It was appalling. Their "thugs" at the doors reminded us that the extortioner said no one was to leave. I advised him that he was to watch us and that he should not try to stop us.
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Instead of studying to make sure what we believe is supported by Scripture, we MUST study the Scripture to see what IT TEACHES... then BELIEVE THAT!
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2.15 KJV
I think a pastor should work a full time job like everyone else. Just my opinion. I know plenty of pastors that are bivocational and refuse to depend on the church's welfare. One even told me that Paul admonished against fellowshipping with men who wouldn't work, and he believed that goes for the pastor too.
Matthew 10
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Apostles
1 Jesus called his twelve disciples together and gave them authority to cast out evil[a] spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness. 2 Here are the names of the twelve apostles:
first, Simon (also called Peter),
then Andrew (Peter’s brother),
James (son of Zebedee),
John (James’s brother),
3 Philip,
Bartholomew,
Thomas,
Matthew (the tax collector),
James (son of Alphaeus),
Thaddaeus,[b]
4 Simon (the zealot[c]),
Judas Iscariot (who later betrayed him).
5 Jesus sent out the twelve apostles with these instructions: “Don’t go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans, 6 but only to the people of Israel—God’s lost sheep. 7 Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!
9 “Don’t take any money in your money belts—no gold, silver, or even copper coins. 10 Don’t carry a traveler’s bag with a change of clothes and sandals or even a walking stick. Don’t hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve to be fed.
11 “Whenever you enter a city or village, search for a worthy person and stay in his home until you leave town. 12 When you enter the home, give it your blessing.
verses 9-10 indicate to me that those preaching the Gospel should expect to be provided for.
3 This is my answer to those who question my authority. 4 Don’t we have the right to live in your homes and share your meals? 5 Don’t we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers do, and as Peter does? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have to work to support ourselves?
7 What soldier has to pay his own expenses? What farmer plants a vineyard and doesn’t have the right to eat some of its fruit? What shepherd cares for a flock of sheep and isn’t allowed to drink some of the milk? 8 Am I expressing merely a human opinion, or does the law say the same thing? 9 For the law of Moses says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? 10 Wasn’t he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.
11 Since we have planted spiritual seed among you, aren’t we entitled to a harvest of physical food and drink? 12 If you support others who preach to you, shouldn’t we have an even greater right to be supported? But we have never used this right. We would rather put up with anything than be an obstacle to the Good News about Christ.
13 Don’t you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it.
These verses indicate to me that ministers who devote their lives to spreading the Word can expect to be supported financially.
Also understand that IF the pastor has sole control of the tithes/account, he is liable to pay taxes on the ENTIRE amount, even if he can prove that he did not receive the entire amount as salary. I've been through this before when trying to get a previous church we pastored compliant. The IRS hasn't come down on these churches yet, but they would do well to get their houses in order. None of these regulations hinder the pastor from receiving "just/fair" compensation, it just means that the Pastor cannot have it both ways. That is why a salary for the pastor, set by the board, is the safest and most compliant way to do it.
Usually, if a pastor desires to be up front with financial info with the church he pastors, the people will not begrudge him a good salary. Now, if the pastor wants to live an opulent life style no matter what the financial situation of the church is, the people will usually not feel good about that, and IMO, he is heading for trouble!
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"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
I've never felt the compulsion to walk out of an Apostolic church during their service.
I would have just let those who have and are willing to give, give with the right heart.
But I went to an Apostolic church in NC that passed the offering plate 3 times in a service on many occasions because the offerings given were not enough for the church to meet their financial goals.
I was in a church (PCAF) here in Cincinnati one night at a midweek service. After the offering was taken up, it was counted, and the pastor said that they needed more so the offering continued until enough was received.
I was there representing the Vineyard Church. We were going to do a multi-church outreach the following weekend and I was there to explain how we were going to do it.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Church spent too much time taking up offerings and likely didnt do it right.
Pastor is (according to Rhoni) worth of his hire.
Before I would be willing to comment here, i want to know if this kind of action would have happened if the pastor was at the service?
One time my pastor went out of town and the fellow left in charge did some things that insured he was never left in charge again.
Did a mistake happen here? Sure looks like it. Was it a function of the way this church operates or was it a function of inexperienced or unthinking people being left to handle things in the pastors absence?
I think these are important questions before skewering these folk.
...
#3. I will say that through the years things have changed in ministry. Many Pastors are not availbale to their church 24/7. They have set appointment times and they are set by the church administrator and they have lay Pastors that visit the sick, counsel, and prayer teams for special prayer. This is a good thing on one hand and a bad thing on another.
...
In a large church, one or two pastors cannot handle all the calls and requests that come in. It's good if a church can have volunteers who can carry a beeper and be available for designated periods and if they have volunteers who do the visitation of those who are sick.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
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