If there is no one in your life who can jerk you up short and make you listen once in a while, there is a subtle transformation that takes place in your mind and spirit.
You get more and more autonomous in your thinking, and more and more strong-willed. This is a condition that sets you up for deception, because you are your ultimate authority, and there are no checks and balances on your will and your ego.
God knew we needed the sometimes abrasive influence of authority figures in our life to keep us from becoming so full of ourselves that we become unteachable.
But the truth is, I don't necessarily think that I know better than anyone else. I at least admit that there are a lot more questions that answers. And I agree that we need someone that we can trust to keep us accountable. Unfortunately, the current church model, with its separation between clergy and laity, and veneration of leadership has done little to inspire that.
It is not so much as being ordered, as being taught as truth, things that I do not necessarily view as truth or biblical, or that I feel is being misinterpreted. Not necessarily things that are outright sin (like drinking the kool-aid etc.), but things I definately feel are not what God intended.
But I really don't so much want to make this about me, but about the question, at which point is it wrong to "obey", that is the question.
This is the problem. without being able to define what "IT" is, we are left in a position of either advocating seperation from all leadership (which is wrong)
or advocating blind allegiance to leadership that is in violation to the word of God. (wich is wrong)
Clearly the biblical mandate is to subject ones self to leadership. (see Coonskinners post he says things better than me). So reguardless of our view of what should or should not be done, we need to place ourselves under leadership and obey them that rule our lives. period.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I could define what I think is Biblical truth, and chances are it would not exactly match with anyone else's opinion of the same. But you have brought up a good point. Would you recommend that Catholic's submit to their priest when he says that its a good idea to pray to Mary & the saints? Or when he advises them that he's sorry that they already have 14 children, but using birth control is a sin?
Most here would say that those things are sin, error, or at the very least unbiblical. But techinically, priests are those who are put in authority over catholics, and therefore by what I perceive to be the thoughts of most here, they would be required to obey and submit to them.
But GOD did not put them in authority. That's the difference. In the REAL Church, it's God that puts certain men in authority over the saints.
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It is not so much as being ordered, as being taught as truth, things that I do not necessarily view as truth or biblical, or that I feel is being misinterpreted. Not necessarily things that are outright sin (like drinking the kool-aid etc.), but things I definately feel are not what God intended.
But there is a biblical way of dealing with such things.
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But I really don't so much want to make this about me, but about the question, at which point is it wrong to "obey", that is the question.
ok. cutting who off from fellowship and what opinions does this pastor bast that on?
Cutting off other Christians from fellowship -- telling others not to fellowship with them, not allowing them to attend services or not allowing them to minister based upon a personal conviction. The personal conviction is the pastor's.
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------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
When a preacher preaches the Word, it is not really the preacher that we are attending our ears to. It is God's Word. That makes nothing more of the man than a man. But we give highest regard if it was a 12 year old reading the Word to us, for a preacher is an ambassador for the Lord reprsenting Him. Some take that too far and get into what Michlow has indicated, where they order everyone's every breath. And some people want it that way since that is easier than getting to know the Lord personally.
The problem is that they don't just "preach the word", they preach their OPINION of the word. Though that is often forgotten, and it is more of a "thus saith the Lord" attitude that accompanies it. I have a lot more respect for someone who says "This is the scripture, and I believe it means this, and I believe we should apply it like this." Then someone who says 'This is the scripture, it MEANS THIS, it MUST be applied this this, or YOU WILL BE LOST!!!"
Cutting off other Christians from fellowship -- telling others not to fleeowship, not allowing them to attend services or not allowing them to minister based upon a personal conviction. The personal conviction is the pastor's.
OS, unless you give some very spicific example, and that example is relevent to your current situation, then the discussion is either symantic in nature, or just a hypothetical one.
cutting off other christians? that could mean anything. It could mean that an Apostolic pastor wont let a baptist evangelist hold a revival...well, neither would I. but it fits your vague discription.
please expand on the point....
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
But the truth is, I don't necessarily think that I know better than anyone else. I at least admit that there are a lot more questions that answers. And I agree that we need someone that we can trust to keep us accountable. Unfortunately, the current church model, with its separation between clergy and laity, and veneration of leadership has done little to inspire that.
I agree with the bolded. I am not so sure that this is a wide spread issue within the church body, or just a few isolated situations, though.
Praying for you, Mich. Please pray for my family...
We are all on a personal journey, I believe, and we need to uphold each other in love, yet in truth. These are the last days, and the enemy is trying every avenue of deceptiveness to take us captive.
Thank God for a desire to serve Him and to endure to the end- in spite of what men do or say...
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I REFUSE TO BE HELD HOSTAGE BY THE FAILURES OF MY PAST...
This is the problem. without being able to define what "IT" is, we are left in a position of either advocating seperation from all leadership (which is wrong)
or advocating blind allegiance to leadership that is in violation to the word of God. (wich is wrong)
Clearly the biblical mandate is to subject ones self to leadership. (see Coonskinners post he says things better than me). So reguardless of our view of what should or should not be done, we need to place ourselves under leadership and obey them that rule our lives. period.
Ok, let me approach this another way. What determines the "who" behind the command to obey those in authority. How is it decided that they are in authority?
If I visit a church, is the Pastor considered my authority? At what point would he become my authority? When I visit a few times? When I sign a membership card? When?
It's ALL good!!!
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