Obey Them that Rule???

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by ILG

Oh good grief. How do you know if she's serious?

'Cause he's Chan, he knows everything

Originally Posted by ILG

Well, maybe I didn't state what I meant clearly enough. I'm not saying that WE should decide, alone, who is over us. I am saying that WE + God make that determination. In other words, the leading of the Spirit is what helps us decide. We don't do this alone. Neither do we just say that the Bible says the five-fold ministry is above me and therefore whoever's church I am sitting in must be it!

But even this suggests exercising a certain amount of personal sovereignty. We don't have any rights in this area. God doesn't give us the right to give input. God alone makes the decision (He made it from before the foundation of the world): our job is simply to obey. You said "WE + God make that determination" but I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. I'm sure you didn't mean that we allow God to have some input but we make our own decision.

If the church you're sitting in is the one where God has placed you, then the Biblically-established leadership in that local church is the leadership God has placed over you.

Originally Posted by ILG

Oh good grief. How do you know if she's serious?

I said I didn't think she was serious. What gave me that clue? The smiley face she put at the end of her post.

[ILG]

But even this suggests exercising a certain amount of personal sovereignty. We don't have any rights in this area. God doesn't give us the right to give input. God alone makes the decision (He made it from before the foundation of the world): our job is simply to obey. You said "WE + God make that determination" but I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. I'm sure you didn't mean that we allow God to have some input but we make our own decision.

No, God doesn't have "some input". God has THE input and then we obey. Sometimes though, God leads in ways that are slow and cause us to use our own perceptions in the process.

If the church you're sitting in is the one where God has placed you, then the Biblically-established leadership in that local church is the leadership God has placed over you.

Yes, and then submission and not subservience (as MB stated) is the rule of the day. Big difference. God does not expect us to give up our perceptions and our minds. He does expect us to sometimes give up our will for the greater good.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Whew! I admit, I was kinda worried when I saw that you had entered the fray. Here I was thinking "I am doing my best to hold off both Coon & Chan, I don't know that I can take much more."

So I was quite glad to see that you agreed with me on something, even if you couldn't remember what it was

I agree with this quote:

Originally Posted by Michlow

And I agree that we need someone that we can trust to keep us accountable. Unfortunately, the current church model, with its separation between clergy and laity, and veneration of leadership has done little to inspire that.

I agree that the current church government is faulty in many ways, and makes submission and more accurately, trust, more difficult. However, there is something to be said for trusting God to lead us to the right place and place us under the right authorities.

Because I cannot fully submit, for reasons listed repeatedly both on this thread and the church twice a month thread, I only visit church sporadically and do not get involved.

Here's my take: I don't attend church regularly to please the pastor. I attend regularly because scripture says "forsake not...the assembling." I attend out of submission to God. ...the point being that your church attendance shouldn't be based on how much you agree with the pastor. It's a good thing to fellowship with other saints, worship with other saints and hear preaching and teaching from the Word.

Of course, I am blasted for that, but I am trying to do the best for all involved. Both to follow my own conscience, and to not cause problems in that assembly or for that Pastor. (Honestly, some of you Pastors, would you WANT someone with my thoughts, etc. to be there every service and trying to get all involved? Sharing my thoughts with the other saints, etc? Yeah, I didn't think so )

Just because you attend a church doesn't mean you have to "share your thoughts." I don't agree with our pastor on everything, but in the interest of unity, I keep my disagreements to myself, or between my husband and I, and if it were something that needed voicing, I would voice it directly to my pastor and no one else. I know you were teasing, but just thought I would point that out.

I consider things like attending church, prayer, reading my bible, giving, using the gifts God has given me, etc., to be service to God, not service to the church, so those are things I do no matter what church I attend. It may be a good idea for you to evaluate some essential things and decide what you ought to do based on scripture, and not what the church "expects." In some cases the church expects certain basics because God has pretty much already commanded them. Again, the point being...you should do them in service to God, not to please the pastor--who you may not always be in agreement with.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Chan

I said I didn't think she was serious. What gave me that clue? The smiley face she put at the end of her post.

Ahh. You just don't know Michlow. She's a good joker, but hardly blasphemous.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Just because you attend a church doesn't mean you have to "share your thoughts." I don't agree with our pastor on everything, but in the interest of unity, I keep my disagreements to myself, or between my husband and I, and if it were something that needed voicing, I would voice it directly to my pastor and no one else. I know you were teasing, but just thought I would point that out.
.

What would you do if a person in your church sought you out for advice and the pastor was giving them wrong advice?

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I agree with this quote:



I agree that the current church government is faulty in many ways, and makes submission and more accurately, trust, more difficult. However, there is something to be said for trusting God to lead us to the right place and place us under the right authorities.



Here's my take: I don't attend church regularly to please the pastor. I attend regularly because scripture says "forsake not...the assembling." I attend out of submission to God. ...the point being that your church attendance shouldn't be based on how much you agree with the pastor. It's a good thing to fellowship with other saints, worship with other saints and hear preaching and teaching from the Word.



Just because you attend a church doesn't mean you have to "share your thoughts." I don't agree with our pastor on everything, but in the interest of unity, I keep my disagreements to myself, or between my husband and I, and if it were something that needed voicing, I would voice it directly to my pastor and no one else. I know you were teasing, but just thought I would point that out.

I consider things like attending church, prayer, reading my bible, giving, using the gifts God has given me, etc., to be service to God, not service to the church, so those are things I do no matter what church I attend. It may be a good idea for you to evaluate some essential things and decide what you ought to do based on scripture, and not what the church "expects." In some cases the church expects certain basics because God has pretty much already commanded them. Again, the point being...you should do them in service to God, not to please the pastor--who you may not always be in agreement with.

You'll have to go over and read the church twice a month thread, to hear all my many and varied reasons for my lack of church attendance. Though I think I could basically sum it up with, I don't like it and I get very little out of it. But I think I said it much more eloquently than that

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ILG

What would you do if a person in your church sought you out for advice and the pastor was giving them wrong advice?

Refer them to God. That isn't my place (to assess the validity of his advice and verbally disagree with the pastor). I would consider any action on my part, or any conversation contrary to his advice to be stirring up discord.

If the pastor asked for my input, that would be a different matter.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Refer them to God. That isn't my place (to assess the validity of his advice and verbally disagree with the pastor). I would consider any action on my part, or any conversation contrary to his advice to be stirring up discord.

If the pastor asked for my input, that would be a different matter.

So you would relenquish all your responsibility to help them with a "Take it to God?" Isn't that king of like saying "I know you're hungry, but since the pastor won't feed you, Be warmed and Filled!"