What does it really take?

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by SearchingOut

Please bear with my long post. I would like to get some honest discussion on the topic and if I overlooked an identical post, I'll read that. I was a bit overwhelmed by the number of threads and didn't see what I was looking for.

I've been in church all my life, I've went to a relatively large church for most of my life who had iron standards that were rivaled only by the most conservative of the upci. Our leadership taught us that if you didn't do it our way then you weren't going to make it. We looked down on any churches who didn't believe what we did and spent youth services marvelling at all the churches who had gone "charismatic." The funny thing is that our friends from yesterday suddenly didn't meet our standards anymore so we chased new ones and finally resigned to solitude. We were closer at church than some of our genetic brothers and sisters for the most part and had incredible excitement and spirit. Our pastor was later convicted of sex crimes from being a little too close to some of the sisters, the church fell apart and I moved on.

I had spent most of my life convinced that I wouldn't make it anyways.

I then went to a really small church who again had iron standards. In fact if a friend in the ministry had a higher standard they would pick that up too. There were clothing inspections, other people enjoyed getting to walk out when someone did something that the church didn't believe in like video presentations of missionary events. Again, no socializing with those evil charismatics or the likes thereof (anyone with lower standards).

I still was convinced that I had a slim shot at making it all the way, but hey! gambling is better than not playing at all.

Now I'm going to a church that is an hour from where I live. It has standards that are biblically based only. If its not scriptural either by literal interpretation or at least by an arguable scriptural basis (i.e. pants are mens apparel whether they are labelled womens or not) then its not enforced. For the first time I feel like I really can make it, reaching an equalibrium of holiness and mercy but the church is so busy and intellectual that I've lost the enjoyment of church. My friends are those who can use me and for the most part only as long as they can use me. Then like a duster, I'm put back on the shelf for the next round. I really couldn't care a lot if I didn't go back.

The teaching is second to none and could be documented for theological discussion. I've never known more about scripture and why, but I'm drying up inside. I go to church and really enjoy it, join the masses heading through the door afterwards, do my duties for the church and then its over, back to the week again. I have never felt both so close to God at church and so far away when I'm not.


I guess my state of mind is disillusioned and confused. My question and point of this discussion is this:

In others opinions, what is it all about? Is it about my first location hating those who aren't as good and striving at an ever decreasing goal in the distance? Is it about competing with other churches to see who can have the shiniest book of standards? Is it about knowing so much about scripture that you can argue with the best theologians and look down on those who don't understand?

On the other side of the spectrum, I see those who were also disillusioned with it all and abandoned holiness entirely. Choosing to trust in God's mercy more than His Word. Allowing first one thing and then another until they are no longer distinguishable from the world. It becomes more of a confession of faith and handshake religion where anything goes that would make someone else uncomfortable.

Across the spectrum I see churches who excel in seemingly important areas and fail in others. The question is which is more important? Is it truely possibly to find a church that can reach an equalibrium of both maintaining holiness and biblical education and yet not become so businesslike that people can only be friends if they are in the same organizational unit?

For the first time in my life, I can truely understand why some people abandon the church idea and become spiritual nomads. I dont' think its right, but I can see the reason.


Is there anyone who has been here and back? Anyone who has really considered, more than for fear or comfort, why they are doing what they believe?

Please don't use this for a bashing opportunity. I'm turned off by the accusations and disdain and I'll just move on. The question is if you can help me.

Thanks

Ours has. Thanks be to God and I pray it stays that way.

I can sense you are wounded in your spirit. It was not a small oversight that your man of God was found in sexual perversion. This is devastating. Also, it seems he did not present holiness to you in a well defined manner. Whether other posters agree with him or not on his stands, he certainly did not deliver and show what holiness is about. To you, you perceive it was a contest of works, and not fruits of righteousness. (Again, I don't want to turn this thread into standards - I believe strongly in them).

The church you visited, has an intellect, but it sounds is bereft of the Spirit. Or at least, it's food, but you're not feeling fed. You are in a dangerous situation right now, but it seems your honesty with it all can be your lifesaver. Find a man of God you trust. Sit down and talk. Talk many times. Pick a coffee shop. Really get it all out. It would be far more beneficial than what we can accomplish on an AFF thread. No putdown to AFF. I just think someone personally involved and in person can be much more helpful to you.

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

SearchingOut,

I always premise my lessons on holiness by first saying: holiness does not make me better than someone else; holiness makes me better than myself.

Wow!! I really like that!

[Tina]

Originally Posted by SearchingOut

Please bear with my long post. I would like to get some honest discussion on the topic and if I overlooked an identical post, I'll read that. I was a bit overwhelmed by the number of threads and didn't see what I was looking for.

I've been in church all my life, I've went to a relatively large church for most of my life who had iron standards that were rivaled only by the most conservative of the upci. Our leadership taught us that if you didn't do it our way then you weren't going to make it. We looked down on any churches who didn't believe what we did and spent youth services marvelling at all the churches who had gone "charismatic." The funny thing is that our friends from yesterday suddenly didn't meet our standards anymore so we chased new ones and finally resigned to solitude. We were closer at church than some of our genetic brothers and sisters for the most part and had incredible excitement and spirit. Our pastor was later convicted of sex crimes from being a little too close to some of the sisters, the church fell apart and I moved on.

I had spent most of my life convinced that I wouldn't make it anyways.

I then went to a really small church who again had iron standards. In fact if a friend in the ministry had a higher standard they would pick that up too. There were clothing inspections, other people enjoyed getting to walk out when someone did something that the church didn't believe in like video presentations of missionary events. Again, no socializing with those evil charismatics or the likes thereof (anyone with lower standards).

I still was convinced that I had a slim shot at making it all the way, but hey! gambling is better than not playing at all.

Now I'm going to a church that is an hour from where I live. It has standards that are biblically based only. If its not scriptural either by literal interpretation or at least by an arguable scriptural basis (i.e. pants are mens apparel whether they are labelled womens or not) then its not enforced. For the first time I feel like I really can make it, reaching an equalibrium of holiness and mercy but the church is so busy and intellectual that I've lost the enjoyment of church. My friends are those who can use me and for the most part only as long as they can use me. Then like a duster, I'm put back on the shelf for the next round. I really couldn't care a lot if I didn't go back.

The teaching is second to none and could be documented for theological discussion. I've never known more about scripture and why, but I'm drying up inside. I go to church and really enjoy it, join the masses heading through the door afterwards, do my duties for the church and then its over, back to the week again. I have never felt both so close to God at church and so far away when I'm not.


I guess my state of mind is disillusioned and confused. My question and point of this discussion is this:

In others opinions, what is it all about? Is it about my first location hating those who aren't as good and striving at an ever decreasing goal in the distance? Is it about competing with other churches to see who can have the shiniest book of standards? Is it about knowing so much about scripture that you can argue with the best theologians and look down on those who don't understand?

On the other side of the spectrum, I see those who were also disillusioned with it all and abandoned holiness entirely. Choosing to trust in God's mercy more than His Word. Allowing first one thing and then another until they are no longer distinguishable from the world. It becomes more of a confession of faith and handshake religion where anything goes that would make someone else uncomfortable.

Across the spectrum I see churches who excel in seemingly important areas and fail in others. The question is which is more important? Is it truely possibly to find a church that can reach an equalibrium of both maintaining holiness and biblical education and yet not become so businesslike that people can only be friends if they are in the same organizational unit?

For the first time in my life, I can truely understand why some people abandon the church idea and become spiritual nomads. I dont' think its right, but I can see the reason.


Is there anyone who has been here and back? Anyone who has really considered, more than for fear or comfort, why they are doing what they believe?

Please don't use this for a bashing opportunity. I'm turned off by the accusations and disdain and I'll just move on. The question is if you can help me.

Thanks

I will pray for you.........

[SearchingOut]

Ok, I think I need to ask another part of the question a different way to understand. I have been coming to understand that holiness doesn't preface salvation and the various ways that has been put here has helped me think, but in picking a church to attend, shouldn't there be some basis in holiness for its spiritual health? Obviously there should always be a mix of new vs seasoned members, but if a church has been in place for some time shouldn't the basic biblical principles be in place?

For example Paul speaks on the veil/hair being long. If a church is actively embracing members cutting their hair or women wearing pants then shouldn't it be seen as being unhealthy?

I guess what I'm asking is this: I can agree with the fact that salvation prefaces holiness, but what is the measure of a healthy congregation? Where do we draw the line between judging a lack of holiness and expecting a minimum of holiness?

Or should a church be selected by the spiritual appearance? Should the outward appearance really be completely ignored and instead look at the spiritual things? The scripture speaks of how the world will know us and says by the fact that we have love one to another.

I guess my final question for this post is this: Does God expect holiness in exchange for salvation?

Let me give this story and I'll end this post. I have a friend who went to a church that had the normal standards that I've seen in the moderately conservative "pentecostal" churches. The pastor was determined to be misappropriating funds and was removed. Whether he was going to replace them or not aside at this point. Several of the members moved on to start another church in the same city that had no comparison to the other church. What is commonly referred to as holiness went by the wayside and a more "anything goes" mindset was adapted but they say they have never felt closer to God. The question is whether that is a true statement or a reprobate mind? Can we move away from holiness and yet closer to God?

[2020Vision]

Originally Posted by SearchingOut

Ok, I think I need to ask another part of the question a different way to understand. I have been coming to understand that holiness doesn't preface salvation and the various ways that has been put here has helped me think, but in picking a church to attend, shouldn't there be some basis in holiness for its spiritual health? Obviously there should always be a mix of new vs seasoned members, but if a church has been in place for some time shouldn't the basic biblical principles be in place?

For example Paul speaks on the veil/hair being long. If a church is actively embracing members cutting their hair or women wearing pants then shouldn't it be seen as being unhealthy?

I guess what I'm asking is this: I can agree with the fact that salvation prefaces holiness, but what is the measure of a healthy congregation? Where do we draw the line between judging a lack of holiness and expecting a minimum of holiness?

Or should a church be selected by the spiritual appearance? Should the outward appearance really be completely ignored and instead look at the spiritual things? The scripture speaks of how the world will know us and says by the fact that we have love one to another.

I guess my final question for this post is this: Does God expect holiness in exchange for salvation?

Let me give this story and I'll end this post. I have a friend who went to a church that had the normal standards that I've seen in the moderately conservative "pentecostal" churches. The pastor was determined to be misappropriating funds and was removed. Whether he was going to replace them or not aside at this point. Several of the members moved on to start another church in the same city that had no comparison to the other church. What is commonly referred to as holiness went by the wayside and a more "anything goes" mindset was adapted but they say they have never felt closer to God. The question is whether that is a true statement or a reprobate mind? Can we move away from holiness and yet closer to God?

Without holiness, no man shall see God. That's a quote.
Standards are an expression of our holiness, namely the flesh's submission to His word, statutes and complete desire to be one of His, and not of the world. (Again, not turning this into a standards argument - unless you reject any standard at all!) It sounds like you know what is right. There will be mixed feelings on this post as to what kind of church you should find. I'm not sure sure if that will help you or confuse you more.

Find a spiritual mentor. Someone you may already sort of know. Someone you deeply respect. Talk with them. Pray. Pray a lot. God will open things up for you. I firmly believe that. He will heal the wounds that exist when a spiritual leader falls. You have seen with your own eyes, it seems, many different reactions, and it seems you are trying to make the right decision.