TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Esther, I remember reading somewhere a few years back that the retention rate in Evanelical churches is appallingly low... something like 20% of "new believers"; and the retention rate for people who "accept Jesus as their savior" at Billy Graham's crusades -- even lower.

The evanglical movement has more than their share of problems with retention. There are many articles out there that show this pretty clearly, such as:

"Despite their packed megachurches, their political clout and their increasing visibility on the national stage, evangelical Christian leaders are warning one another that their teenagers are abandoning the faith in droves. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/06/us...ed=1&th&emc=th

"Craig Rench, pastor of First Church of the Nazarene in Anaheim, California, studied local church cell leader multiplication and made some alarming observations. "Retention rates among American evangelical churches range from 2 percent to 16 percent. Retention rate is the percentage of new believers who are still in the church one year after conversion."
http://www.nph.com/nphweb/html/h2ol/...ediaId=2383625

...But there are some folks here who will never talk about that.

Good post, TRFrance! I have known this to be true and we do have friends - believe it or not - that are not UPC. We get to hear about their church problems too!

[Pastor Keith]

On the issue of Retention:

The retention is issue has more to do with the thoroughness of someones repentance rather than receiving the spirit. Faith in Christ as the only solution to a person sin problem is the basis of salvation, not receiving new life.

You have to have an awareness your present life is taking you to hell, before you appreciate, desire, cry out for new life.

In many ways we have made untold false converts by telling them the benefits of the new life without convincing them that their old life is killing them, spiritually, physically and every such way. In simple terms you won’t appreciate the cure until you know how bad the disease is.

In my opinion that is why retention is so low.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

The holy church at large is moving away from tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe this is because of so much phoniness associated with ministries that have strongly advocated this.

"Spirit filled" Christians have as many divorces as other Christians. They aren't anymore effective in witnessing than other Christians. They have the same retention problems as other Christians. etc, etc.

It sounds to me that certain "Charismatic" leaders are wanting to be transparent and face the problems that are facing the movement. Others who attended decided to remain on their perch and pretend problems don't exist.

In my opinion, the "spirit filled' church at large has become tired! They are tired of the pressure to emotionally hit a home run in every service or the service is a failure.

What the holy church needs is a HOLY GHOST BAILOUT! Not one that is primed by shouting music or cheerleader type screaming, but one that comes at an unexpected time where nobody can take credit for "helping" it come.

Awesome post!!!

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

The holy church at large is moving away from tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe this is because of so much phoniness associated with ministries that have strongly advocated this.

"Spirit filled" Christians have as many divorces as other Christians. They aren't anymore effective in witnessing than other Christians. They have the same retention problems as other Christians. etc, etc.

It sounds to me that certain "Charismatic" leaders are wanting to be transparent and face the problems that are facing the movement. Others who attended decided to remain on their perch and pretend problems don't exist.

In my opinion, the "spirit filled' church at large has become tired! They are tired of the pressure to emotionally hit a home run in every service or the service is a failure.

What the holy church needs is a HOLY GHOST BAILOUT! Not one that is primed by shouting music or cheerleader type screaming, but one that comes at an unexpected time where nobody can take credit for "helping" it come.

Um, yeah... ok Steinway....Believe that if you want to.

As one who who was raised in a non-spirit-filled Episcopalian church, I'll take a Spirit filled church ANY DAY (even with its problems), over a dead Protestant church.

The differences between "us" and "them" are HUGE. The differences are not minor, as you seem to be trying to make it sound.

[Falla39]

[QUOTE=Jermyn Davidson

;668540]The only problem I have with what KH said is that the Bible DOES NOT teach
receiving the Holy Ghost w/ speaking in tongues as something that is mandated for salvation.

The Holy Ghost is a promise, not a command.


Jermyn,

Did you receive the Holy Ghost when you believed!

If so, did YOU speak in tongues when the Holy Ghost
came!

If not, how did you know you had received the Holy Ghost!
Was there a sign of life! A sound, etc.

Blessings,

Falla39

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Um, yeah... ok Steinway....Believe that if you want to.

As one who who was raised in a non-spirit-filled Episcopalian church, I'll take a Spirit filled church ANY DAY (even with its problems), over a dead Protestant church.

The differences between "us" and "them" are HUGE. The differences are not minor, as you seem to be trying to make it sound.

TRFrance,
I didn't get the impression that Pianoman was talking about not having a "spirit filled" church. I agree that people are tired of routine.

We do need to step back, in some places, and take our time to allow God to do the work and not we forcing the Spirit to work.

Fortunately, I am in a church that is patient to allow the Spirit to direct us!

[Kings Kid]

I believe that the reason why the reason why retiton on discpleship is low with the the upci because the do not focus on buliding a relationship with the person they are descispling.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Um, yeah... ok Steinway....Believe that if you want to.

As one who who was raised in a non-spirit-filled Episcopalian church, I'll take a Spirit filled church ANY DAY (even with its problems), over a dead Protestant church.

The differences between "us" and "them" are HUGE. The differences are not minor, as you seem to be trying to make it sound.

He can speak for himself, but I believe you misread what he's saying.

[Esther]

The anointing breaks the yokes off of people. Until the yokes of bondage is truly broken it is too easy to fall back into old habits.

A new creature will seek new ways. JMO

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Kings Kid

I believe that the reason why the reason why retiton on discpleship is low with the the upci because the do not focus on buliding a relationship with the person they are descispling.

I agree that is part of it, but again community flows out of commonality. The commonality of the community is that Jesus saves from sin. Awareness of that as the primary issue must be first, then flows community/fellowship.

Most Evangelism in the US comes about by convincing people come to Jesus for life enhancement, health, wealth and prosperity.

And when those benefits come and go, then people drop out. Especially when satan and world come calling to reclaim that person back. They become two fold child of hell, offended at the church because the promises that were given at intiation didn't come to pass.

There are great benefits to serving God, but the main reason to come to Jesus, and stay with him is that he is the only solution to my sin problem.

When I live with that awareness then my primary motivation is clinging to him and with those in the same vein.