TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Where did he get the statistics that he based his conclusions on?

I'd like to see numbers that were even close enough to be the shadow of accurate statistics on the Oneness movement.

He stood up Dr. Daniel Segraves at Regent University during a class in Renewal Theology, where the discussion was on how many groups are having people receive the spirit these days, different groups where discussed. He then had Dr. Segraves stand up and told the assembled scholars there that those in OP ranks have a much higher percentage, somewhere north of 90%. This is first hand information from Dr. Segraves himself. I wish I could direct you to a written article but I don't have that luxury.

Why are you so skeptical?

[StMark]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I'm going by what I've seen with my own eyes.

My Apostolic friends have had as many divorces as my non-Apostolic friends. This is a fact in my situation!

I don't see Apostolic churches growing at larger rates than non-Apostolic churches. In fact, most of the "mega" churches in our area are non-Pentecostal!

The retention rate of Apostolic kids that I grew up with has been horrific! I can't imagine any other church organization being worse!

As the world seeps into the church, more divorices have been one of the obvious results
You know yourself, when we were growing up in the UPC, divorice was hardly heard of. our mouths would fly open if we heard of a preacher divoricing.

Divorice was once frowned upon in the church. It's not anymore.

You all want the world in the church, this is the result. The preacher's hands are tied they can't say anything.

[StMark]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Statistics must be about the most malleable thing known to man, especially when used by partisan Pentecostals.

The AoG reported 450,340 "conversions" in 2006. That is a relatively meaningless number that undoubtedly includes everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open. (They are first cousins to Oneness Pentecostals)

Water baptisms more honestly reflect the number of "new believers." In 2006 the AoG reported 114,972 water baptisms.

In the same year (2006) the AoG reported 91,893 Spirit Baptisms.

That's more like 80% of new believers receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I wonder what the "conversions"/Spirit Baptisms ratio is for Oneness Churches?

Just because they give those numbers does not mean that the same people who "received christ as savior" are the same ones receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost

After all, the HG is subsequent to salvation and can take place years after initial conversion. Thus it is likely those who have already been sitting in the pews for many years that received the HG

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

NEWS FLASH!!!!


Point One:
The reason more people are receiving the HG in UPCI circles is that it is preached as a heaven or hell issue. In other words, it is preached that if you don't receive it, you're going to hell. Pretty good motivation, if you ask me to speak in tongues.

Point Two:
The reason the retention rate is low is the fact that discipleship consists more of outward standards than inward character.

When asked what "we" have that they don't, the answer should have been "We believe that it (HGB) is a REQUIREMENT" for salvation not simply a promise for believers who have been saved.

The "bridge" will never be built as long as the org as a whole stands upon the 3 step foundation because it is exclusive of everyone else, including those who have received the HGB and have not been baptized in Jesus' name.




Disclaimer: I'm not trying to resurrect the 1 vs 3 step debate. (or am I)

BUMP



When the rest of "Pentecostalism" sees that that reason for more HGB's among OPs is the above, I guarantee you that they will not compromise what they believe just to get more HGB's.

I don't think the issue is the number of HGB's as much as it is how many are truly living the Spirit Filled/Led life afterwards.

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by Pastor Keith

He stood up Dr. Daniel Segraves at Regent University during a class in Renewal Theology, where the discussion was on how many groups are having people receive the spirit these days, different groups where discussed. He then had Dr. Segraves stand up and told the assembled scholars there that those in OP ranks have a much higher percentage, somewhere north of 90%. This is first hand information from Dr. Segraves himself. I wish I could direct you to a written article but I don't have that luxury.

Why are you so skeptical?

Why is it skeptical to wonder about the source of statistics?

There is a vast difference between an anecdote, a guesstimate, and a tallied count.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

While a greater percentage of people get the Holy Ghost in UPCI churches, the UPCI has one of the worst retention rates as far as Christian denominations go. I’ve heard that growth is nowhere where it should be and we have significant numbers leaving our churches.
...

Also, how many who are "receiving the Holy Ghost" are second and third timers receiving the same experience? Some UPC (and other Oneness) preachers teach that a person has to "receive the Holy Ghost" in order to be saved (again) whenever they may grow cold, leave the church, or "backslide."

[StMark]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

BUMP



When the rest of "Pentecostalism" sees that that reason for more HGB's among OPs is the above, I guarantee you that they will not compromise what they believe just to get more HGB's.

I don't think the issue is the number of HGB's as much as it is how many are truly living the Spirit Filled/Led life afterwards.

And that's why they are coming to KH for the answers????

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I don't think Jesus would have a conniption about a church serving coffee in the foyer - but if they charged $5.00 for a small cup, He probably would!

I didn't say "serving" coffee Bro. I said coffee "shop". It was not a figure of speech. I'm serious. We have a local mega church that has a Starbucks coffee shop in the lobby/foyer that advertises as , coffee, breakfast, luch, dinner, wi fi, call in ahead and place your order.etc, etc.

This same church has "drive-thru" services for those who dont have time to attend a traditional church service.

Oh yeah, and in case anybody has plans to go by with their kids ? The indoor "tube house" playground will be closed through the holidays.


Yes , I'm afraid this is exactly the sort of thing Jesus would have a coniption over.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

BUMP



When the rest of "Pentecostalism" sees that that reason for more HGB's among OPs is the above, I guarantee you that they will not compromise what they believe just to get more HGB's.

I don't think the issue is the number of HGB's as much as it is how many are truly living the Spirit Filled/Led life afterwards.

BUMP

Originally Posted by scotty

So are you saying that they are faking it ? Or are you saying that God would give someone the baptism of the Holy Ghost because of their "fear" of being lost instead of their sincere heart felt love ?



Now there have been a couple post stating this same thing. Is this a split among Charismatics ? The leadership called this meeting and invited Haney because the charismatic leadership is concerned with their lack of HGB within their churches. Haney told them it was because the Charismatics have made it non essential. So the million dollar question here is , -- what is the Charismatic leadership going to do from this point ?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

I didn't say "serving" coffee Bro. I said coffee "shop". It was not a figure of speech. I'm serious. We have a local mega church that has a Starbucks coffee shop in the lobby/foyer that advertises as , coffee, breakfast, luch, dinner, wi fi, call in ahead and place your order.etc, etc.

This same church has "drive-thru" services for those who dont have time to attend a traditional church service.

Oh yeah, and in case anybody has plans to go by with their kids ? The indoor "tube house" playground will be closed through the holidays.


Yes , I'm afraid this is exactly the sort of thing Jesus would have a coniption over.

With the exception of the "drive thru" services, I have no objections to anything you've listed here.

What's wrong with having a cafe or a tube house in the church building? Shouldn't church be a place where families can assemble?

None of the things you mentioned are sinful, and most likely people are going to find these things somewhere - why not the church?