What do you think of this?

[Book 'em Dano]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

There is some REAL hurt that takes place when one pastor deliberately robs another pastor not only of his church members, but often the relationship that existed between that pastor and the saint.

There are cases when the pastor who is doing the "stealing" deliberately sabotages the existing pastor with innuendos and "backbiting" in his attempts to persuade the saints to go elsewhere, and OFTEN it works like a charm.

Are you actually a pastor, or were you just speaking hypothetically earlier?

I agree, the Kingdom of God should come first, and taking saints from other churches, whether by good marketing or underhanded tactics isn't about the Kingdom of God. It's about a man (or woman) increasing their own personal kingdom or fiefdom.

Exactly. You know it is pretty sad to see on this thread the attacks lobbed at any Pastor whose local church is the target of the active campaign of another church and pastor to approach those saints and convince them they shouldn't be in that church. That is division. The bible says avoid those that cause division.

Yet the voices railing against the UPC pastor and loss of tithes aren't doing so against the church and the pastor who conceivably will reap MORE tithes by absorbing saints from another church.

Why not focus on the lost? Why focus on some other Oneness church if we are all in the same body?

How healthy can a church be if they actively persue such an agenda? If you were a Pastor and there was a church across town with members calling your members and convincing them to leave your church and join theirs would you be ok with that? What if one member of your congregation rises up and gets half your church to go with him across town to start their own church, not on the pretense of spreading the gospel but because his church will be a better church. You, as a pastor, can't see the danger in that? You would not seek to prevent such sectarianism? The bible says to avoid those that do that.

I have to wonder if you that are trying ot turn this on the UPC pastor have ever been in a situation like this and if you did, did you continue to fellowship with that other church, bringing your people into contact with them?

At some point a Pastor has to realize that another church might not be a healthy place to be and needs to protect the saints from becoming the merchandise of that church. That is the problem. Some of you have turned it around. It's the OTHER church that is looking at these saints in that way.

The UPC in question and the pastor has lost members who decided of themselves to leave and that was not a problem. The same church has absorbed members of other churches too. There was always still a working relationship to contact each other and let them know what was going on. But that is far different than a church that sees the saints of your church as thier mission field when there are thousands of unsaved out there. That is not what a church is supposed to be. How can that be healthy?

[Book 'em Dano]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

My dad pastored just as many years, Miss B.... we had divisions internally and he too adjudicated over these type of messes as a district presbyter and leader in the Spanish minsitry ...

The meetings, the witnesses ... the phone calls, the letters, the whining, boohoing, BACKBITING, etc ... wasted a lot of his VALUABLE time ... and, I believe, the time and energy of others ...

because it usually was based on he said, she said.

Usually it resulted in hurt feelings all around ... someone being disfellowshipped ... and fueds that may last for decades ....

ALL FOR WHAT ????

It's time we move on ... and stop being territorial ...

someone goes ... LET IT BE. It hurts, sure ... We're supposded to be big SEASONED boys and girls.

But too much time has been wasted on sorting these issues and USUALLY it results in HIGHLY CHARGED OPINIONS ... not FACTS.

Any pastor who thinks that their sheep have been stolen ... needs to re-evaluate the mission.

AND YES ... LOVE MONEY ... IS THE ROOT OF EVIL ... and does play a role in a lot of this .... some way or another.

Can you show where in whawt I posted the issue was about territory or money?

I am talking about an active campaign to get members of one church to join theirs....and you think the thing to do is attack the UPC pastor for being concerned about such actions? Do you think that what that church is doing is spiritually healthy?

[SDG]

Book'em Dano ... Dont' bother to read the AA pastor his Miranda rights ....!!! Guilty as sin.

You've made your case, sans due process or evidence, to justify disfellowship the felonious man of God ... just with your account of what went down.

Obviously, he's got the cooties and so does his church ... DISFELLOWSHIP, I SAY!!!!

[Book 'em Dano]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Your father handled it differently than mine did, apparently. My father never brought charges against a single man, nor did he disfellowship any other churches. He would put in a polite phone call when someone came to our church, but never demanded it from other pastors. (Who didn't usually offer it anyway.)

As for being territorial...when you have seen lives damaged by selfish men, it does create some protective feelings on the part of any pastor who cares about the congregation he is supposed to look after. Territorialism is underscored by men who care so much about increasing their personal kingdoms that they spend more time wooing members of other churches than they do evangelizing a fresh harvest.

Are you a pastor?

MissB, in this case we aren't even just talking about a saint leaving and the pastor not calling. And yes that does happen. We are talking about another Apostolic church actively recruiting members of another church. Calling them. Coming to a service there then approaching certain saints and talking them into leaving.

Territorialism isn't even an issue here.

[Book 'em Dano]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Book'em Dano ... Read the AA pastor his Miranda rights!!!

You've made your case, sans due process or evidence, to justify disfellowship the felonious man of God ... just your account of what went down

Obviously, he's got the cooties and so does his church ... DISFELLOWSHIP, I SAY!!!!

Actually there is evidence. Lots of it. It has been happening. There never was really a "fellowship" to begin with. There was an active attempt on their part to talk saints into leaving.

Based on my account, if this was happening to your church and you were the pastor, would you continue to allow them to come into your congregation and take half of your church membership to their church? Would you think that such a church and Pastor that is allowing this to happen, is a healthy place for a saint to be?

[bishoph]

I have never believed in "sheep stealing." What I do believe in is feeding the sheep! If more shepherds would feed the flock they would not have to worry about sheep wondering into another "mans" fold. Only the malnourished sheep wander, those well fed know the voice of their shepherd and where the food is.

Another thing! We must always remember: Only the owner has the right to "kill" the sheep, not the shepherd. The owner can have lamb chops every night if he chooses, but as a shepherd my responsibility is the care and nurturing of the flock. As part of my responsibility, I may have to shear the sheep, correct, and guide, but it is never my right or duty to inflict wounds that lead to the demise of the sheep.

JMHO

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Book 'em Dano

Actually there is evidence. Lots of it. It has been happening. There never was really a "fellowship" to begin with. There was an active attempt on their part to talk saints into leaving.

Based on my account, if this was happening to your church and you were the pastor, would you continue to allow them to come into your congregation and take half of your church membership to their church? Would you think that such a church and Pastor that is allowing this to happen, is a healthy place for a saint to be?

If there was no fellowship in the first place then ... your inquiry to disfellowship ... sounds more like an attempt to feel justified in your righteous wrath.

There is a biblical template on how to handle things when someone offends us ...

Yet in the case of this AA and UPCI mess ... who would be the elders ... if it got that far ....

Dano ... the Church of the Living God ... is a healthy place to be ...

A minister who puts his kingdom first ... will reap what he sows.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

...A minister who puts his kingdom first ... will reap what he sows.

This is very true. (It's BIBLE!!!) Which is why those who have been hurt or feel they have been treated unjustly SHOULD just move forward with their confidence in God, and understanding that He will right any wrongs they've suffered.

See? We agree on SOME things.

[Book 'em Dano]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I have never believed in "sheep stealing." What I do believe in is feeding the sheep! If more shepherds would feed the flock they would not have to worry about sheep wondering into another "mans" fold. Only the malnourished sheep wander, those well fed know the voice of their shepherd and where the food is.

Another thing! We must always remember: Only the owner has the right to "kill" the sheep, not the shepherd. The owner can have lamb chops every night if he chooses, but as a shepherd my responsibility is the care and nurturing of the flock. As part of my responsibility, I may have to shear the sheep, correct, and guide, but it is never my right or duty to inflict wounds that lead to the demise of the sheep.

JMHO

Again, this was not an issue of a "sheep wandering into" anything. This has been an active modus operandi of one church to target a certain ethnic of another church and convince them they don't belong in that church, they belong in theirs. It's not a case of one member being unhappy and looking for another church.

[Book 'em Dano]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

If there was no fellowship in the first place then ... your inquiry to disfellowship ... sounds more like an attempt to feel justified in your righteous wrath.

There is a biblical template on how to handle things when someone offends us ...

Yet in the case of this AA and UPCI mess ... who would be the elders ... if it got that far ....

Dano ... the Church of the Living God ... is a healthy place to be ...

A minister who puts his kingdom first ... will reap what he sows.

This is what I am saying. One Pastor wanted to have more "fellowship" by having combined services that involved this other church. The UPC pastor did not thing that was a good thing considering the record of one of the churches. Further more at least one member would often come and visit services and after services start his recruiting of members to leave. That is distressing not just for a pastor but for saints. So the pastor asked him not to come back.

So can you answer my questions? What would you do? Do you think that other church is healthy if that is what they are actively doing and their Pastor approving?