Summoning spirits? Who did the Witch of Endor see?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think you'll have to tell the spirit of Samuel that he has no knowledge.

The writer here is only speaking of the "grave". There isn't any knowledge in the grave among the bodies of the dead. Their bodies are inanimate and rot. However, this verse says nothing about the soul and it's eternal disposition. For example, you can look into a person's grave and their body lays lifeless, there isn't any knowledge or thinking there. However, their soul is either present with the Lord or alienated from God and in torments.

The "grave" he speaks of is Sheol in the Hebrew. It is the Hebrew name for Hades. One and the same. The Writer says nothing happens there.

The words by Josephus are not found in the Bible.

[jaxfam6]

My thoughts on this is that witches deal with familiars, a spirit that they use and that uses them to accomplish their 'miracles'. If her familiar had arrived she would have known it and it would not have frightened her. This is why I believe that God allowed Samuel to appear and talk with them.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The "grave" he speaks of is Sheol in the Hebrew. It is the Hebrew name for Hades. One and the same. The Writer says nothing happens there.

The words by Josephus are not found in the Bible.

Michael,

What Aquila is saying is that if the spirit was that of Samuel ... then that spirit speaks with knowledge ...


16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

Aquila, Josephus' descriptions of what the Jewish tradition was and how they interpreted Scripture ... I believe ....can be used as persuasive authority if we have something in the Word that seems to correspond. It's an invaluable historic witness.

I think his description would correspond to Jesus parable of Lazarus and the rich man. What say ye?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The "grave" he speaks of is Sheol in the Hebrew. It is the Hebrew name for Hades. One and the same. The Writer says nothing happens there.

The words by Josephus are not found in the Bible.

Well, evidently Samuel was hanging out and capable of thought in the grave or there wouldn't have been a spirit to call up. lol

Now, one must understand the principle of "progressive revelation". Unless God specifically reveals something to individuals it remains unknown. As far as our Old Testament examples are concerned life essentially ended in the grave. Jewish writings from before the time of Christ express differing opinions regarding the afterlife ranging from a form of soul sleep to transmigration of the soul (essentially that's reincarnation, fascinating subject by the way). So those with only the Old Testament truly only had partial and speculative knowledge of the afterlife. Seeing that a medium and those who speak to the dead are forbidden in the Law, I'd say that God validates that there is something to speak too in the grave... else he'd disregard it as foolishness and wouldn't offer the death penalty for it. Now...we move on... The New Testament is a different story. Here we are introduced to Jesus, God in flesh. He has full knowledge of the afterlife. Meaning that if he validates that there is blessedness or suffering beyond the grave we have to add that to the limited and partial Old Testament understandings. The Words of Jesus TRUMP any possible interpretation of the Old Testament. To interpret Christ’s words based on the OT is to do violence to Christ’s teachings. Instead, we need to reinterpret the Old Testament teachings in light of Christ’s words. Paul also indicates that once we are dead we are “present with the Lord”. Paul, having the Holy Ghost baptism (something the Old Testament prophets didn’t even have) also holds more weight than OT interpretations. Then we get to the Revelation where the souls of the martyrs are crying out before the throne… this is also a first hand prophetic account from John who received these things while “in the Spirit”. John’s first hand, eye witness, rendering from the vision also trumps anything one can extrapolate from the OT.

Personal testimony here… When my mother died I prayed that God would give her just one more night to be with my two year old son, her grandson who was with a sitter. She died shortly afterwards. After some paperwork we all returned to the hotel for some much needed sleep. The next morning we had breakfast and we were in my aunt’s hotel room. Suddenly the conversation grew quiet and every hair on my body stood straight up. It felt like my mom just walked into the room. What’s weird is that we all looked at each other at the same time. My grandmother said, “Did you feel that?” I said, “I did, it felt like her.” May aunt said, “Maybe she’s trying to say goodbye.” I whispered, “I love you mom. I’ll see you in time.” No sooner did I say that was there a knocking at the hotel room door. We stood speechless, feeling uneasy about opening the door. There was a second knocking. I got up and opened the door… there was our sitter who just brought Noah to the hotel to see his aunt and his grandmother at my wife’s request. It didn’t dawn on me until later, when I was packing to head home, that the feeling of my mother’s “presence” preceded my son’s arrival to the hotel room by a mere minute. Then the memory of my prayer that the Lord allow her just one more night with my son was impressed upon me by the Holy Ghost. This was confirmation that the Lord answered my prayer, he allowed her to spend one more evening with my son. Her soul most likely held him all night before departing.

When you walk in the natural spiritual things appear foolish. When you walk in the spirit you’ll realize that things aren’t always as cut and dry as atheists or religionists assume, and that there are spirits that we encounter on occasion…some angelic, some demonic, and yes, some human.

There is life after death.

John 11:25
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Michael,

What Aquila is saying is that if the spirit was that of Samuel ... then that spirit speaks with knowledge ...


16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

Aquila, Josephus' descriptions of what the Jewish tradition was and how they interpreted Scripture ... I believe ....can be used as persuasive authority if we have something in the Word that seems to correspond. It's an invaluable historic witness.

I think his description would correspond to Jesus parable of Lazarus and the rich man. What say ye?

Exactly Bro. Alicea.

[revrandy]

What is the point of this thread?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by revrandy

What is the point of this thread?

That Samuel's spirit was actually conjured from the grave. If that is indeed the case, that leads to a number of implications.... and that's were we are now.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That Samuel's spirit was actually conjured from the grave. If that is indeed the case, that leads to a number of implications.... and that's were we are now.

Of course this goes to the idea of "soul sleep" ... but

I think escathological view also is affected, Aquila. If I believe in the fulfilled view ... would I have to accept that Hades/Sheol has been done away with?

Rev 20:13-14And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

What happened, in this model, to the souls in the "divided" Hades?

Also, what of the widely supported Christian view that Jesus went into Hades and preached to the disobedient?

1 Peter 3,4

Ultimately is how we view "hell" a fair question to examine?

[revrandy]

I don't see what the big deal is...

The Bible says the woman cried out with a loud voice...Sounds like she was surprised that it happened.... Saul prayed but God would not answer....he needed the Preacher...
If she was indeed a witch with power why did she not recognize Saul immediately?

God is limitless in his power and ability I think he allowed Samuel to speak to Saul regardless of who "summoned" him...

What are the implications???

[Michael The Disciple]

Now, one must understand the principle of "progressive revelation". Unless God specifically reveals something to individuals it remains unknown. As far as our Old Testament examples are concerned life essentially ended in the grave. Jewish writings from before the time of Christ express differing opinions regarding the afterlife ranging from a form of soul sleep to transmigration of the soul (essentially that's reincarnation, fascinating subject by the way). So those with only the Old Testament truly only had partial and speculative knowledge of the afterlife.

Progressive Revelation? That exactly what the Trinitarians base their refusal to believe the Tanakh concerning the Oneness of God on. They know for sure "Trinity" was not in it. But they can divorced from it create the doctrine by not understanding its relation to the New Testament.

You seem to imply the non Biblical traditions of the Jews carried more weight than scripture itself when you say our knowledge of the matter is "partial" and speculation.

My thinking would be that the scriptures reveal the truth and the writings that were non inspired would be speculation at best and at worse delusions of evil spirits.

As far as Samuel and the Witch goes it could be that as something different in that case God allowed Samuel to wake up and come with a message of doom for Saul. That certainly would not vindicate that he then resumed his bliss in life eternal.

If Samuel already had eternal life what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Jesus said:

14: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. John 6:14

27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27-28

Jesus said it is HE which shall impart eternal life. Men teach everyone who ever lived already had eternal life before Jesus ever came consciencely existing in Hades on one side of it (according to the doctrine) or the other.

It is a denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If they all were alive before Jesus came what pray tell is the GOOD NEWS?

When you walk in the natural spiritual things appear foolish. When you walk in the spirit you’ll realize that things aren’t always as cut and dry as atheists or religionists assume, and that there are spirits that we encounter on occasion…some angelic, some demonic, and yes, some human.

No one said there are no spirits. What I reject is to use this Bible story to prop up the false idea that men had eternal life before Jesus the Christ did.