A Very Important Question

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by CC1

the raven,

I think you have gotten some very good advice on this thread. I understand when PurpuleBayou says that it does him little good to revisit hurts and past wrongs. I agree to a point.

I do think an airing out of those issues is good but at some point (and I feel this point happens very soon) that can turn to bitterness and rancor. If you are not careful interacting with people who have had similar bad experiences with churches or pastors can quickly turn from lifting each other up to reinforcing negative views of church and pastors.

As the old saying goes you are what you eat. Or in more biblical terms you reap what you sow. The best thing is to fairly and accurately acknowledge the past and all of it's hurts and wrongs but to dwell on the future and the good things of God and church.

CC1,

I think we can agree that education based on past oversights or neglect is the best prevention for the same things reoccurring. I agree that the pain of the past must be under the blood of Christ to keep one from harboring resentment, but we can use the past as a tool to shape the future.

Blessings, Rhoni

[pelathais]

I am perhaps not the best example to follow. When I ran right smack into wha amounted to a sex club for ministers I was grossed out and shocked. When the whole affair resulted in the death of a friend I was so emotionally stunned that I allowed myself to go numb. The immediate alternative was mayhem and revenge, but don't think I really had that in me. So I allowed myself to become swallowed up with numbness.

People need useful tools at times like these, and ideas are tools. They need to feel that they have some power not only over themselves but over the circumstances that caused them pain.

Helplessness is frustrating and will only engender deeper resentment and all to often, a violent backlash. What kept a couple of guys from a well deserved beating in my case was the clear conviction that I had - I really was morally better then them and I didn't want to lose that clarity.

So, remind the good people that they are indeed just that - Good People! Good Christian people have a whole lot of tools at their disposal to work out the worst sorts of problems. Use those tools.

Also, there a tendency in many cases to "Keep things quiet..." Perhaps that's what the pastor you mention was trying to do. In some misguided way he might have thought he was "protecting" people. That instinct goes deep in our Pentecostal/Apostolic culture. Resist it.

A free flow of information is essential to good health in any social group. Make certain people know who to contact for good information and updates. As bad as things can get, the unknown is often much worse. The unknown creates stress, builds suspicion and breeds anger and resentment. Kill it with good information.

Educate the people about the laws of the state and how they may apply to your situation. Advise them of the roles that various players might have, police investigators, social services, judges, attorneys, etc. Some of this info may never even come to bear in the case, but knowledge is power and people who feel empowered are usually better off than the helpless and despairing.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I am perhaps not the best example to follow. When I ran right smack into wha amounted to a sex club for ministers I was grossed out and shocked. When the whole affair resulted in the death of a friend I was so emotionally stunned that I allowed myself to go numb. The immediate alternative was mayhem and revenge, but don't think I really had that in me. So I allowed myself to become swallowed up with numbness.

People need useful tools at times like these, and ideas are tools. They need to feel that they have some power not only over themselves but over the circumstances that caused them pain.

Helplessness is frustrating and will only engender deeper resentment and all to often, a violent backlash. What kept a couple of guys from a well deserved beating in my case was the clear conviction that I had - I really was morally better then them and I didn't want to lose that clarity.

So, remind the good people that they are indeed just that - Good People! Good Christian people have a whole lot of tools at their disposal to work out the worst sorts of problems. Use those tools.

Also, there a tendency in many cases to "Keep things quiet..." Perhaps that's what the pastor you mention was trying to do. In some misguided way he might have thought he was "protecting" people. That instinct goes deep in our Pentecostal/Apostolic culture. Resist it.

A free flow of information is essential to good health in any social group. Make certain people know who to contact for good information and updates. As bad as things can get, the unknown is often much worse. The unknown creates stress, builds suspicion and breeds anger and resentment. Kill it with good information.

Educate the people about the laws of the state and how they may apply to your situation. Advise them of the roles that various players might have, police investigators, social services, judges, attorneys, etc. Some of this info may never even come to bear in the case, but knowledge is power and people who feel empowered are usually better off than the helpless and despairing.

Hmmmm.....I had heard of the Hair Club for Men but not this club for ministers!

I assume the death you refer to was a suicide? Earlier I think you made a reference that sounded like some ministers had killed someone and I had a feeling that was not entirely correct. I assume you are inferring the ministerial behaviour was a contributing factor in a person committing suicide?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by CC1

Hmmmm.....I had heard of the Hair Club for Men but not this club for ministers!

I assume the death you refer to was a suicide? Earlier I think you made a reference that sounded like some ministers had killed someone and I had a feeling that was not entirely correct. I assume you are inferring the ministerial behaviour was a contributing factor in a person committing suicide?

I went into in some detail here a couple years back. No suicide.

A preacher "showed up on our doorstep" with a "sad tale of woe," as my senior pastor told it. He was snickering when he came to me to conspire about this.

The out of state pastor had a secretary whose family lived in our district and attended a church across the city.

Unbeknownst to any of us, the district superintendant had begun to notice a pattern in travel through our district by the pastor and his secretary. I failed him in that I never went to him until a few years later. At the time all I ended up doing was to throw my card at the board and go out.

My pastor approached me to change the speaking schedule of a youth rally to accomodate his buddy from out of town. I refused. A friend, a fine preacher who was a real up and comer was on his way through our city to preach that rally. He too had family in the area so the department wasn't even going to have to pay his hotel.

A shouting match ensued and I was shouted down. My pastor pulled rank as both senior pastor and an organizational official. He got his way. I was told that when my friend got to town I was to tell him to "Keep on driving, God sent us a preacher!" He crowed that at me several times, "God sent us a preacher."

It sort of played on his conversation with his wayward buddy. When his buddy asked him, "What am I going to do?" (about his wife and others finding out that he was in town with his secretary... many folks were suspicious). My pastor told him, "Brother (...), we'll tell them that God sent you to (our city) to preach a two week revival at (our church)!"

God sent us a preacher.

My friend arrived in town, spent the night and was back on the road the next day. He was killed about 50 miles out of town - a car came across the highway and struck him head on. He was killed the morning of the day before the youth rally. When I refused to go into the service the next night it caused some folks to become very unsettled.

I was forced to accept this as being some sort of an "act of God." You know, an unscrutable act of God. That wiley God Who throws us all around with the bitterest of ironies and the strangest sense of humor on the planet.

To be sort of fair - my pastor was really motivated in trying to "save the marriage" and the ministry of a friend. Perhaps I'm being too hard on him. After all, the plans and schedules of "kids" couldn't be as important as the grief and burdens of the "grown ups."

I think that was his thought process. But the man was stubborness incarnate. He never took advice or sought council. He had many "friends" but no close confidences. Every whim or mood swing was the "Voice of God" to him. Maybe I'm trying to punish him for all of his sins with the results of this one huge error in judgment.

Dunno. But I can see why some theologians found the need for a purgatory. Justice is far too often absent in our world. With his salvation guaranteed by having the "correct" syllables ennuciated over his baptism is there no accountability at all? Eventually, I have to bury this stuff, or it will bury me. And then all thoughts of justice and equity die.

[Sam]

I have been part of prayer teams that prayed for people after service and for people who were part of our Monday Night Healing Service where there were small groups, etc. Also, I have been a pastor on call who had to deal with whatever emergency calls came to our church. We were clearly instructed that if anyone "confessed" or talked about hurting or abusing someone we had to tell them that that information had to be reported to the authorities immediately and if they wouldn't report it we had an obligation to report it. We would give them the option of reporting it themselves or letting us do it. If they said they would report it themselves, we had to check with them the next day and see if they had. If not, we had to report it.

I have never had to confront an abuser that way in the years that I ministered that way. Only a couple of times have I had to call someone when a person was threatening suicide.

It is my opinion that any abuse should be reported immediately and the civil authorities should handle it. It is also my opinion that anyone who desires to work with children in a church or school should go through a background check.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Dunno. But I can see why some theologians found the need for a purgatory. Justice is far too often absent in our world. With his salvation guaranteed by having the "correct" syllables ennuciated over his baptism is there no accountability at all? Eventually, I have to bury this stuff, or it will bury me. And then all thoughts of justice and equity die.

This is disturbing on so many levels.

Praying for you, Pel.

[the raven]

Thanks to all! God is helping us! I think we can salvage some of these good folks. Lord willing they will prosecute both the perpetrators and enablers (ministry) and close down the church. This is a 20 year issue with known pedophile felons on the platform as leaders.

It would be in the best interests of all to totally start fresh somewhere else in town - new leadership, church name and location.

Thanks again! Will let you know.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I went into in some detail here a couple years back. No suicide.

A preacher "showed up on our doorstep" with a "sad tale of woe," as my senior pastor told it. He was snickering when he came to me to conspire about this.

The out of state pastor had a secretary whose family lived in our district and attended a church across the city.

Unbeknownst to any of us, the district superintendant had begun to notice a pattern in travel through our district by the pastor and his secretary. I failed him in that I never went to him until a few years later. At the time all I ended up doing was to throw my card at the board and go out.

My pastor approached me to change the speaking schedule of a youth rally to accomodate his buddy from out of town. I refused. A friend, a fine preacher who was a real up and comer was on his way through our city to preach that rally. He too had family in the area so the department wasn't even going to have to pay his hotel.

A shouting match ensued and I was shouted down. My pastor pulled rank as both senior pastor and an organizational official. He got his way. I was told that when my friend got to town I was to tell him to "Keep on driving, God sent us a preacher!" He crowed that at me several times, "God sent us a preacher."

It sort of played on his conversation with his wayward buddy. When his buddy asked him, "What am I going to do?" (about his wife and others finding out that he was in town with his secretary... many folks were suspicious). My pastor told him, "Brother (...), we'll tell them that God sent you to (our city) to preach a two week revival at (our church)!"

God sent us a preacher.

My friend arrived in town, spent the night and was back on the road the next day. He was killed about 50 miles out of town - a car came across the highway and struck him head on. He was killed the morning of the day before the youth rally. When I refused to go into the service the next night it caused some folks to become very unsettled.

I was forced to accept this as being some sort of an "act of God." You know, an unscrutable act of God. That wiley God Who throws us all around with the bitterest of ironies and the strangest sense of humor on the planet.

To be sort of fair - my pastor was really motivated in trying to "save the marriage" and the ministry of a friend. Perhaps I'm being too hard on him. After all, the plans and schedules of "kids" couldn't be as important as the grief and burdens of the "grown ups."

I think that was his thought process. But the man was stubborness incarnate. He never took advice or sought council. He had many "friends" but no close confidences. Every whim or mood swing was the "Voice of God" to him. Maybe I'm trying to punish him for all of his sins with the results of this one huge error in judgment.

Dunno. But I can see why some theologians found the need for a purgatory. Justice is far too often absent in our world. With his salvation guaranteed by having the "correct" syllables ennuciated over his baptism is there no accountability at all? Eventually, I have to bury this stuff, or it will bury me. And then all thoughts of justice and equity die.

Pelathias,

That is a very sad and distrubing story. Was the adultery of the preacher ever revealed and what happened to him? I know people get disturbed when these kinds of stories get aired and it is true there may be more to it than your perspective but this would not be the first time something like this has happened. I am constantly amazed at the philisophy of some that protecting the reputation of the church / ministry / preachers comes before dealing correctly with out and out sin / moral failure.

If a preacher knows another preacher is in the midst of unrepented adultery I believe it is an insult to God for him to allow that preacher to get behind a pulpit and preach. I would pray he would help the fallen preacher repent, seek forgiveness, and get set on a program of restoration BUT to put him in a pulpit is just nuts.