You Be The Judge: Anderson Vs Burk

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

This pains because probably I would have more in common with both Elders Burk & Benincasa than others who hold a view closer to mine on this issue. But this gap is so large it becomes a fellowship issue. I pray they recover from their error and you get back to your roots. I say this in love.

I appreciate your sincerity, brother, but I am convinced I am moving closer and closer to what the Bible teaches we should live like and believe. I do not consider denominational eccentricities to be my "roots". The Lord is the root and I am a branch. And I do not play with my soul.

As far as fellowship is concerned, the hermeneutic that fp holds is error, I believe. But unless they apply it to other areas of doctrine, which they have not done yet, I can fellowship with them. I have always maintained that their hermeneutic would mar things greatly if applied to other areas of doctrine. But to keep it in prophecy renders it objective and not subjective. We all love Acts 2 salvation and we seek to live a life pleasing to God, and we all expect to dwell in eternity with the One True God, Jesus Christ. What we think of Israel and when resurrection occurs is secondary, to say the least, to all of that.

And if they want my view on resurrection, I will probably give them a three hour sermon showing what the Book says and why they are in error about it, and what I believe it says.

I cannot say their view on res. does not concern me, since resurrection is one of the six principles of the doctrine in Heb 6:1-2. But I think you went too far in saying you think they are lost and cannot fellowship them.

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I appreciate your sincerity, brother, but I am convinced I am moving closer and closer to what the Bible teaches we should live like and believe. I do not consider denominational eccentricities to be my "roots". The Lord is the root and I am a branch. And I do not play with my soul.

As far as fellowship is concerned, the hermeneutic that fp holds is error, I believe. But unless they apply it to other areas of doctrine, which they have not done yet, I can fellowship with them. I have always maintained that their hermeneutic would mar things greatly if applied to other areas of doctrine. But to keep it in prophecy renders it objective and not subjective. We all love Acts 2 salvation and we seek to live a life pleasing to God, and we all expect to dwell in eternity with the One True God, Jesus Christ. What we think of Israel and when resurrection occurs is secondary, to say the least, to all of that.

And if they want my view on resurrection, I will probably give them a three hour sermon showing what the Book says and why they are in error about it, and what I believe it says.

I cannot say their view on res. does not concern me, since resurrection is one of the six principles of the doctrine in Heb 6:1-2. But I think you went too far in saying you think they are lost and cannot fellowship them.

I have never believed we should split hairs over one's views on prophecy.
I have no problem whether or not a person is a futurist, partial futurist,
or partial preterist. I have read a lot of your writings over the years, and
have agreed many times with your writings (although I cannot call myself
a partial preterist) The problem with full preterism is as you stated it tears
away at one of six principles of our foundational doctrine listed in Hebrews
6:1-2. When we state that the Lord has already returned, there is no
coming rapture of the church, and no resurrection of the dead, we step into
an area that I am not comfortable with at all. In fact I believe at that point
it is a heresy. I do not say this in a mean spirit at all, it's just something I
believe to be a fact. As for calling someone "lost" that is an area I am
not comfortable with either, but I am comfortable in flagging this teaching
as false doctrine which I believe it to be.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

I have never believed we should split hairs over one's views on prophecy.
I have no problem whether or not a person is a futurist, partial futurist,
or partial preterist. I have read a lot of your writings over the years, and
have agreed many times with your writings (although I cannot call myself
a partial preterist) The problem with full preterism is as you stated it tears
away at one of six principles of our foundational doctrine listed in Hebrews
6:1-2. When we state that the Lord has already returned, there is no
coming rapture of the church, and no resurrection of the dead, we step into
an area that I am not comfortable with at all. In fact I believe at that point
it is a heresy. I do not say this in a mean spirit at all, it's just something I
believe to be a fact. As for calling someone "lost" that is an area I am
not comfortable with either, but I am comfortable in flagging this teaching
as false doctrine which I believe it to be.

I am pretty close to your opinion here. I would just remind everyone that fp's believe Acts 2 salvation gets us to glory, and the fp's believe we will spend eternity with the Lord, and not that we perish as Hymenaeus and Philetus implied we would perish. They do propose a resurrection of the dead when each of us dies, though it is not a resurrection as we would define it. But you will hear them preach there is an individual resurrection ahead of us for each of us. They will deny that they deny a resurrection of the church members.

I do not think fp's considered the implications of their belief (such as resurrection being one of the 6 principles and how they have to claim satan and sin and death will never be removed from the earth) strongly enough before accepting it. Had they been presented with those ramifications before accepting the belief, I think they would have abandoned it.

I feel discomfort in both areas you mentioned, myself. Amen.

As for calling someone "lost" that is an area I am
not comfortable with either

That is what I am trying to say. That is going a bit too far, in my books.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

I have never believed we should split hairs over one's views on prophecy.
I have no problem whether or not a person is a futurist, partial futurist,
or partial preterist. I have read a lot of your writings over the years, and
have agreed many times with your writings (although I cannot call myself
a partial preterist) The problem with full preterism is as you stated it tears
away at one of six principles of our foundational doctrine listed in Hebrews
6:1-2. When we state that the Lord has already returned, there is no
coming rapture of the church, and no resurrection of the dead, we step into
an area that I am not comfortable with at all. In fact I believe at that point
it is a heresy. I do not say this in a mean spirit at all, it's just something I
believe to be a fact. As for calling someone "lost" that is an area I am
not comfortable with either, but I am comfortable in flagging this teaching
as false doctrine which I believe it to be.

I fully respect your view to label FP as false doctrine, I reject FP as such myself. But let us be fair here also.

We need to be fair in saying that Dispensationalism is false doctrine also! We need to see that it is heresy, mark it as such, mark the men that propell that false doctrine as such until they repent! Don't just take a stand against the ones who have gone overboard on the preterist side, be just and mark those who are standing for the Trinitarian dispensationalism also.

That is one of my main gripes is that men are afraid to name false doctrine, ie dispensationalism, but will scream loudly against the PPs or FPs.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

This pains because probably I would have more in common with both Elders Burk & Benincasa than others who hold a view closer to mine on this issue.

Yes indeed Elder Epley, you Brother Burk and myself are alike on lots of issues, but on the issue of eschatology we do not agree.

I believe what I teach because I have studied it out and found its arguments to be solid. Ever since I was baptized in Jesus name, I was taught the True Israel of God, and that Post Tribulation resurrection was the only truth and Pretribulation dispensational teachings were unbiblical. I continued to study and research. One day in Tifton Georgia I had Elder Kenneth Kirkland tell me about a Brother who use to be in their fellowship and went astray into a teaching I couldn't even pronounce. Brother Kirkland told me if I ever heard of Preterism? I said no. He told me that it taught that Jesus came in 70 AD.

I was shocked, I told my wife that I needed to call this Brother Larry T Smith and help him see the error of this teaching.

Brothers Kirkland, Reckart, and Brigmond told me to leave Brother Smith alone. Brother Kirkland told me that once people go into Preterism they never come back out. I said, false teaching is false teaching, and if you cannot prove it chapter and verse then you can come out of it.

I called Brother Larry T Smith and he and I had a discussion on eschatology.
All Brother Smith did was quote the scriptures Mat 16:28, Mar 9:1, Luke 9:27, and Mat 10:23. As Brother Smith was giving me the scriptures I started to consider their context in my mind. Brother Smith told me about a book by a Baptist John Bray, but I had no interest in reading that book or Brother Smith's book at the time. The title of John Bray's book made me think of the context of the chapter of Matthew 24 being fulfilled and felt sick to my stomach. It just couldn't be, Matthew 24 fulfilled?

I then went to preach a revival out in Houston with a Pastor and the revival lasted two weeks. The Brother (who was part of our church family) went with me. We would discuss the whole possibility of eschatology being fulfilled.
As we were having a discussion one night the Brother turned to me and said, "Elder Benincasa, the way you explain the scriptures sounds like you believe in Fulfilled Eschatology." I told the Brother that was impossible, I was post trib, and the Brother smiled and said, "Elder you believe in Fulfilled Eschatology."

While I was heading back to Louisiana to preach at another church, and then head to Pensacola and then Fort Lauderdale, and received a call from Brother Larry T Smith that he would be in Katy Texas and if I wanted to stop by at the Cracker Barrel. I thought that would be good to meet this Brother and discuss the scripture over catfish and turnip greens.

We drove up to Katy Texas CB, and greeted each other and sat down and started going through the word. The other Brother who came with me kept looking at me as Brother Smith spoke, and watched my every move.
After we were done and hug each other's necks, my Brother turned to me and said, "Elder Benincasa, you see that message don't you?"

I said Brother, I have to try everything to pick that teaching apart. I so much wanted that teaching to be wrong. I sat with Elder Chalfant, in his office and wanted him to give me a strong argument against Fulfilled Eschatology. Elder M. Conn, was writing a book the Heresy of the Judaizers and I was going over that book and what I was seeing was proving fulfilled eschatology over and over. I kneeled by my couch and cried and ask Jesus "what is happening here?"

My wife and I were out on the road and I was preaching continually.

If I believed this doctrine I would be heading for a world of criticism, and disfellowship. I was NOT one who got a thrill off of telling people that he was disfellowshiped for controversial doctrines. The last thing I wanteed was to be disfellowshiped.

I love my Brothers and Sisters in the Apostolic ranks, I didn't want to be outed by friends and Brothers.

The more I studied the more it became apparent that the scripture led to the inevitable conclusion.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

But this gap is so large it becomes a fellowship issue.

There shouldn't be any fellowship issue. Elder Epley what is the difference between a man who believes and understands the One God message, and a man who just SAYS he believes the One God message?

One man has understanding of One God, and the other just SAYS that God is One. Yet, one believes in the mighty God in Christ, and the other is a Trinitarian.

If a man understands Jesus name baptism he knows that there is NO other way to heaven, but if they don't understand. Everything from a sinners prayer to baptism in titles can be accepted.

I said all that to say this, there are hundreds of men and women who are in ministry in the Apostolic Movement who don't understand what they really believe when it comes to eschatology. I told one Pastor that I believed in Fulfilled Eschatology and he told me that he really doesn't understand the book of Revelation and therefore didn't want to make it an issue. He went on to say that he would NEVER allow anyone to bring forth eschatology from his pulpit.

I'm Apostolic Pentecostal first and foremost, eschatology is last. We shouldn't have a fellowship problem over what I believe, because you know good and well that there are GOOD Brothers out there who don't understand eschatology, and couldn't care less to find out how. Yet, we fellowship them because they are good clean Brothers who love this Jesus name message.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I pray they recover from their error and you get back to your roots.

I pray you come to understand the truth that will stop the onslaught of apathy and postmodernism that attacks our movement.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I say this in love.

I know you do and I love you.

In JESUS NAME

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

This pains because probably I would have more in common with both Elders Burk & Benincasa than others who hold a view closer to mine on this issue. But this gap is so large it becomes a fellowship issue. I pray they recover from their error and you get back to your roots. I say this in love.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

There shouldn't be any fellowship issue. Elder Epley what is the difference between a man who believes and understands the One God message, and a man who just SAYS he believes the One God message?

I said all that to say this, there are hundreds of men and women who are in ministry in the Apostolic Movement who don't understand what they really believe when it comes to eschatology. I told one Pastor that I believed in Fulfilled Eschatology and he told me that he really doesn't understand the book of Revelation and therefore didn't want to make it an issue. He went on to say that he would NEVER allow anyone to bring forth eschatology from his pulpit.

I'm Apostolic Pentecostal first and foremost, eschatology is last. We shouldn't have a fellowship problem over what I believe, because you know good and well that there are GOOD Brothers out there who don't understand eschatology, and couldn't care less to find out how. Yet, we fellowship them because they are good clean Brothers who love this Jesus name message.

I agree. Is there a more splitered group of believers than pentecostals. And as "apostolics" some love exclusion. We've got to get above the attitude that only the ones in our church with the right sleeve length are going to be in heaven-and all others are damned. There's going to be more people there than what some have preached.

It's kind of like that old joke I heard. Someone died and met St. PEter at the pearly gates. He began to give them a tour of heaven and show them how wonderful it is, showing them different rooms and such. Then as they they came upon a door, St. Peter turned around and put his finger over his lips and said,"shhhh! be real quiet". So they tiptoed past the room, and then the person asks Peter why they had to be quiet. Peter replied, "The church of Christ was in that room-they think there the only ones up here."

I think that's kind of where we are as a movement, judging everyone but ourselves and those of our close fellowship to be heathens and lost. Ad though God manifested himself in the flesh, just to condemn people over a lack of understanding, a lack of "standards" (and yes, I and my household abide by traditional standards), etc.

We are the ones tying God's hands here. There needs to be room for diversity in the church.

[afp1996]

Originally Posted by PocatelloApostolic

When Jesus comes for his bride, He spirit will be taken from the earth. PERIOD!! No one will be able to recieve the Holy Ghost. And we are still having people recieve "that same Spirit" here. So I will say without hesitation: The Rapture of the Bride has NOT happened yet!! Jesus has NOT come in the FLESH yet!! But my Brothers & Sisters, HE WILL COME!!

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

By the claims of some, one would think they know more than Jesus Christ!

You believe in Apostolic Cessantionalism???? Brother that is anti-Pentecostal! Please make sure of this teaching before teaching it! This puts you in the same boat with those other anti-Holy Ghost people.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

I have never believed we should split hairs over one's views on prophecy.
I have no problem whether or not a person is a futurist, partial futurist,
or partial preterist. I have read a lot of your writings over the years, and
have agreed many times with your writings (although I cannot call myself
a partial preterist) The problem with full preterism is as you stated it tears
away at one of six principles of our foundational doctrine listed in Hebrews
6:1-2. When we state that the Lord has already returned, there is no
coming rapture of the church, and no resurrection of the dead, we step into
an area that I am not comfortable with at all. In fact I believe at that point
it is a heresy. I do not say this in a mean spirit at all, it's just something I
believe to be a fact. As for calling someone "lost" that is an area I am
not comfortable with either, but I am comfortable in flagging this teaching
as false doctrine which I believe it to be.

You are correct and I do NOT rejoice in the fact but honestly am sadden by it I do think they have a zeal and a love for God but there error is heresy. I pray they recover themselves.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am pretty close to your opinion here. I would just remind everyone that fp's believe Acts 2 salvation gets us to glory, and the fp's believe we will spend eternity with the Lord, and not that we perish as Hymenaeus and Philetus implied we would perish. They do propose a resurrection of the dead when each of us dies, though it is not a resurrection as we would define it. But you will hear them preach there is an individual resurrection ahead of us for each of us. They will deny that they deny a resurrection of the church members.

I do not think fp's considered the implications of their belief (such as resurrection being one of the 6 principles and how they have to claim satan and sin and death will never be removed from the earth) strongly enough before accepting it. Had they been presented with those ramifications before accepting the belief, I think they would have abandoned it.

I feel discomfort in both areas you mentioned, myself. Amen.



That is what I am trying to say. That is going a bit too far, in my books.

Elder Blume when you cut certain anchors no one knows how far the ship drift. I hope you don't drift too far if you have not already. I invite you to come back home.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Elder Blume when you cut certain anchors no one knows how far the ship drift. I hope you don't drift too far if you have not already. I invite you to come back home.

Elder, denominationalism is no exchange for all truth. When appearance becomes more of an issue than anything else, it comes out in everything one says. Denials of it mean nothing.

The road to life is narrow and strait. We need to always pray the Lord not lead us into temptation but to delvier us from the forbidden fruit of false teachings. We ever should be mindful to pray the Lord correct us should we go wrong, because a deceived person is convinced they are correct. Some are afraid to pray that prayer. We all need to believe for the Lord to free us from any bias and denominational boxing that blinds people from truth.

For years now I have endeavoured to research the bible for God's truths despite what man might try to impose on us all. With all due respect, in recent conversations you made, indicating you could not respond to issues we raise since your material is packed away, you reveal a lack of fresh and present understanding in some biblical areas. Our feet need to always be shod with the preparation of the gospel, being ready to walk-out and give a reason for the hope we hold as believers. Our foundation is readiness of the revelation of what we belief. We can't trust other men's ideas simply due to these men's reputations, nor leave our personal need to know why we believe what we claim to other men to do our studying for us. That is actually a spirit of Roman Catholicism gong back to times when men used temples formerly erected for false gods, and paid the "priest" to do their studying and spiritual exercise for them.

I am "up" on Oneness truth and can teach it to some who might ask. I am ready to talk about Acts 2 salvation and traditions and additions to the bible that were never biblical. I am "up" on prophecy and why I believe what I believe. I've never proposed a belief or adhered to a viewpoint unless I could understand it fully and explain it fully. It's not about winning debates, but about taking our own souls very seriously.

Would you be willing to seriously pray that if you are wrong about prophecy and perceptions of what makes us holy, the Lord would show you? Too many will never make such prayers. When we think we're right to such an extent that we need not pray for correction, we are trapped. God cannot even break through that. I am willing to pray that way, and have been doing just that for some time now. Otherwise, concerns should be had for personal position, rather than others, for tradition and denominationalism will not cut if before God on that great Day! In the end, it does not matter what people think of us. It matters what God thinks. Some won't learn that until they stand before God.

God bless!