Can You Explain This Puzzling Paradox?

[EA]

Can you explain this puzzling paradox?

Why did Jesus tell Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:" and then, eight days later, asked Thomas to "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side:"


John 20

11But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,

12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.

14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.



26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

[Sister Alvear]

did he not accend betwen the two happenings?

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

did he not accend betwen the two happenings?

don't think so.....lemme go look

[mfblume]

I believe He did ascend.

Atonement had to be made. He had to present the blood, so to speak. After He resurrected, he was on his way THAT DAY. Lev 16:17 says that the high priest cannot have any man mar or taint him while performing atonement. The passage you cited with Mary was just the same picture.

Notice His change of terms after, which must be explained by an ascension.

John 20:22-23 KJV And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

He said nothing like that to Mary! Why not? He had not yet ascended.

But he begins to make astounding declarations! Why? He ascended immediately after speaking to Mary.

Sis Alvear is correct, I believe.

[EA]

But, John does not mention the ascension, at all, between these two occurances.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

But, John does not mention the ascension, at all, between these two occurances.

I do not think he had to. Since Jesus told Mary to not touch Him due to Him having not yet ascended, and He told Thomas to touch Him, he must have Ascended. The bible never told us here that He was ascending to make atonement, either, but He was.

Leviticus 16:17 KJV And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

It does not say that He was acting as High Priest at this point, either, but we know He was due to words said elsewhere.

My thoughts, anyway.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

But, John does not mention the ascension, at all, between these two occurances.

Well, he does...sort of:


17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He tells her not to touch Him, because He has not yet ascended--so if He later allows Thomas to touch Him, we can assume the ascension occurred, right?

Also, He tells Mary to go to his brethren and tell them that He [was ascending] unto the Father. That leads me to believe that His ascension took place after seeing Mary, but before He came and stood in the disciples' midst.

[EA]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

But, John does not mention the ascension, at all, between these two occurances.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not think he had to. Since Jesus told Mary to not touch Him due to Him having not yet ascended, and He told Thomas to touch Him, he must have Ascended. The bible never told us here that He was ascending to make atonement, either, but He was.

Leviticus 16:17 KJV And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

It does not say that He was acting as High Priest at this point, either, but we know He was due to words said elsewhere.

My thoughts, anyway.

I agree with you and MissB, but I can see where a casual reader would be confused at how John 21 reads. My future son-in-law asked me this question tonight, and I thought I would pose the question to you theologians.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Well, he does...sort of:


17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He tells her not to touch Him, because He has not yet ascended--so if He later allows Thomas to touch Him, we can assume the ascension occurred, right?

Also, He tells Mary to go to his brethren and tell them that He [was ascending] unto the Father. That leads me to believe that His ascension took place after seeing Mary, but before He came and stood in the disciples' midst.

Yes. Why would he wait forty more days to finally ascend to make atonement, if He arose from the dead ready for atonement? Death, burial and resurrection were not the complete work of the cross. That only provided the death that shed blood proved had occurred, when the blood was then presented on the mercyseat of the ark to actually cause atonement. The mercyseat on earth represented the throne of God in Heaven, as we see the cherubims and their wings above the mrecyseat just as Isaiah saw seraphims and their wings above the throne of God in Heaven. Jesus was on His way to Heaven's throne to make atonement as High Priest.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I agree with you and MissB, but I can see where a casual reader would be confused at how John 21 reads. My future son-in-law asked me this question tonight, and I thought I would pose the question to you theologians.

"Theologians"? lol