Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

[The Lemon]

Originally Posted by Timmy

That's what they say, when these things are brought up. Everyone says their priorities are 1) God, 2) family, 3) church. But what does that really mean? In what real-life way would someone put God first, ahead of family? If one is a pastor, wouldn't it mean putting his pastoral duties ahead of his family's needs, at least to some extent? I mean, his pastoral duties are for God, right? If one is not a pastor, might one go out on the street witnessing to people, rather than work to put food on the table? OK, that was silly. Or was it? Well, give me a non-silly example, someone?

O.K. - time for my 2-cents. First, there is a HUGE difference between what a person DOES for God and their RELATIONSHIP with God. While I agree that to have a relationship will lead to a ministry, it is very possible to allow your ministry to take the place of your relationship - which is extremely dangerous. It often leads to burn out, which can eventually lead to being backslid. I know this because I have lived it, and I have seen other ministers and even pastors burn out and give up. That is why balance is so important. Living on the fringe, or fanatical on anything usually does more harm than good. We already have alot of Christians that know how to be a freak for Jesus, but can't hear his voice or get close enough to worship him. At any rate....

God first, you asked how does a person do it? Simply, all that you do, you do it as unto the Lord - in relationships with family, husband to wife, vice versa, children, neighbors, etc., etc. It is interesting how that people love to mis-interpret the Lords instruction when he made mention that anyone who loves Mother, Father, Wife, etc. more then me is not worthy. If you do some digging and some study, you will find that what He meant was that if you would choose these people over Him.

It would be complete contradiction for the Lord to mean that literally as it is interpreted in the english - after all, He did say for husbands to love your wives as Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it. He also said, 'When you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it to me. There is SOOOO much that can be said about putting the Lord first - nad many lessons that could be taught about it - sadly, I am at work and without my Bible, so i'm not much use in that department right now.

Yes we need private devotions, reading, study, worship, prayer, fasting, etc. But in all we do in life, He is either exalted or not. Our relationship to Him should be so innertwined, that it is a part of all me do (Sort of like men ought always to pray) Is the work of the ministry important? Yes. Do we need it, absolutely! But I decided long ago that I would never put the "work" above my relationship to Jesus or to my family. I am a firm believer that if you can't manage your own home, you have no business trying to take care of the church.

At any rate...i apologize for the lack of scripture reference...at work right now.

Love you all!

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

I fear all of us with UPCI-related pasts obsess ourselves over these things -- and while denominational churches are preaching "be holy, be separate, don't love this world"... we plug our ears. I fear this. I fear it greatly.

Also, Aquilla, not all cons are manipulating, mean-spirited and ugly about their standards. Probably most of them are, so I'll give you that much ground. But the church I'm acquainted with -- they were gentlemen: "this is how we see it, this is why we see it that way, we have good fruit with this recipe... we understand if you can't make this your church after this, but if you like this community, this is all part of it." They were gracious -- though I disagreed with them in a major way about their biblical interpretation.

I think that most cons are probably not mean spirited and ugly about their standards. I think it's just that those who are both conservative and mean spirited and ugly are so memorable.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I think that most cons are probably not mean spirited and ugly about their standards. I think it's just that those who are both conservative and mean spirited and ugly are so memorable.

Yep. it doesn't take many to make a big impression.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

I fear all of us with UPCI-related pasts obsess ourselves over these things -- and while denominational churches are preaching "be holy, be separate, don't love this world"... we plug our ears. I fear this. I fear it greatly.

Also, Aquilla, not all cons are manipulating, mean-spirited and ugly about their standards. Probably most of them are, so I'll give you that much ground. But the church I'm acquainted with -- they were gentlemen: "this is how we see it, this is why we see it that way, we have good fruit with this recipe... we understand if you can't make this your church after this, but if you like this community, this is all part of it." They were gracious -- though I disagreed with them in a major way about their biblical interpretation.

I understand that and I love those people. BUT... even if they are nice about condemning people with facial hair to Hell... they are teaching a lie. There isn't any such standard in the Bible and the Pastor is outside of his delegated authority. Remember... the Pastor's authority rests in the Word... not his arbitrary opinions. So it's hard... I see nice conservatives who are lovely people... but they hold to some standard that isn't biblical and make it a Heaven or Hell issue. That my friend is the danger of getting religion and not Jesus.

Again, we can't be emotionally driven. They might seem nice and make us feel all fuzzy. But if they are teaching a lie... it's a lie. A pastor may be the nicest guy in town... but if he says you'll go to Hell or even risk going to Hell if you have facial hair... he's teaching a lie.

It's very serious.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I understand that and I love those people. BUT... even if they are nice about condemning people with facial hair to Hell... they are teaching a lie. There isn't any such standard in the Bible and the Pastor is outside of his delegated authority. Remember... the Pastor's authority rests in the Word... not his arbitrary opinions. So it's hard... I see nice conservatives who are lovely people... but they hold to some standard that isn't biblical and make it a Heaven or Hell issue. That my friend is the danger of getting religion and not Jesus.

Again, we can't be emotionally driven. They might seem nice and make us feel all fuzzy. But if they are teaching a lie... it's a lie. A pastor may be the nicest guy in town... but if he says you'll go to Hell or even risk going to Hell if you have facial hair... he's teaching a lie.

It's very serious.

Aquila,
There are many people who have already moved past this issue and are moving past it. Our SIL has a "full" beard and a couple of men in the church have mustaches. There is not one soul that cares about beards!

It's erroneous for you to think the "whole" of anything stands for "all". I don't mean to be disingenuous in my post, but - really - there are so many things that we don't worry about anymore.

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I'm glad you clarified about the serpents.

Here is a video from my snake handler days. I'm the one on the left in the featured video called "Creekwood - Snake Handlers."

http://vimeo.com/channels/alcplanocomedy

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Aquila,
There are many people who have already moved past this issue and are moving past it. Our SIL has a "full" beard and a couple of men in the church have mustaches. There is not one soul that cares about beards!

It's erroneous for you to think the "whole" of anything stands for "all". I don't mean to be disingenuous in my post, but - really - there are so many things that we don't worry about anymore.

I know there are preachers who allow facial hair. My pastor doesn't seem to make it an issue unless one is on the platform... and still... he doesn't say one would go to Hell, it's just policy. There are just a number of unbiblical standards that are often made Heaven or Hell issues. Rules against things like...

Jewelry
Sleeve Length
Dress styles (dress vs. pants on women)
Cut hair on women
Television
Sports
Tithing
Head Coverings
Varying styles of Music (both secular and Christian)

And if they are not made Heaven or Hell issues... we often see them made "fellowship" issues. If an individual or if another church doesn't line up with the man made rules in these areas they are often denied varying degrees of fellowship thus dividing the body. If a Pastor will not fellowship a church who doesn't follow his man made rules... he's using his unfounded authority to divide the body or believers.

If you think about it... the majority of our "division" problems in the Apostolic movement aren't caused by actual "sin". No biblical church would fellowship a church that ordains homosexuals or tolerates financial corruption and/or sexual sin in the ranks. Our divisions are primarily caused by our man made standards (Jewelry, sleeves, hair, television, sports, etc.).

If we divide the body over things that aren't even biblical standards... do we not do violence to the body??? And is that not a sin?

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I know there are preachers who allow facial hair. My pastor doesn't seem to make it an issue unless one is on the platform... and still... he doesn't say one would go to Hell, it's just policy. There are just a number of unbiblical standards that are often made Heaven or Hell issues. Rules against things like...

Jewelry
Sleeve Length
Dress styles (dress vs. pants on women)
Cut hair on women
Television
Sports
Tithing
Head Coverings
Varying styles of Music (both secular and Christian)

And if they are not made Heaven or Hell issues... we often see them made "fellowship" issues. If an individual or if another church doesn't line up with the man made rules in these areas they are often denied varying degrees of fellowship thus dividing the body. If a Pastor will not fellowship a church who doesn't follow his man made rules... he's using his unfounded authority to divide the body or believers.

If you think about it... the majority of our "division" problems in the Apostolic movement aren't caused by actual "sin". No biblical church would fellowship a church that ordains homosexuals or tolerates financial corruption and/or sexual sin in the ranks. Our divisions are primarily caused by our man made standards (Jewelry, sleeves, hair, television, sports, etc.).

If we divide the body over things that aren't even biblical standards... do we not do violence to the body??? And is that not a sin?

Aquila, it has been my "fear" for years that the very preachers that hold these unbiblical standards over Gods saints, telling them that they are in danger of hell fire for infracting these standards.

I feel if any one is lost over these "standards it will be those who impose and enforce legalistic standards upon Gods children.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I think that most cons are probably not mean spirited and ugly about their standards. I think it's just that those who are both conservative and mean spirited and ugly are so memorable.

I think you may have something. Just as those that are liberal and mean spirited and ugly are memorable. I do agree that it is probably not the majority of either side to be mean and ugly but those that are stand out from the crowd, and not in a good way.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

I think you may have something. Just as those that are liberal and mean spirited and ugly are memorable. I do agree that it is probably not the majority of either side to be mean and ugly but those that are stand out from the crowd, and not in a good way.

Makes it a little harder to point at one side or the other once you've experienced the brutal ugly from both sides.