The Times...They are a-Changin' - Page 5

EA · #41 06-20-2009, 09:51 PM

The most reliable segment of the church I pastor is the twenty-somethings.

Hoovie · #42 06-20-2009, 09:54 PM

OK I will be serious - for a minute at least.

What CC1 posted is exactly what UPC hardliners hope to avoid by towing the line with something approaching counter culture.

The spirit of the age (Zeitgeist in German) is not favorable to anything absolute - therefore the church needs a clear sound, they reason - a black and white for everything.

A pastor that not only has rules but revels in drawing distinctions between those real Christians that follow the code and those who are "compromisers".

In fairness to those of this mindset - IT DOES WORK for some people. However, I do not think it ever makes for a very strong body.

berkeley · #43 06-20-2009, 10:12 PM

great thread

Jaxon · #44 06-20-2009, 10:23 PM

Indeed , the "spirit of the age" runs from absolutes. But, again this is not just a "church" thing.......It's in the news everyday, everywhere.......People don't want anybody to define anything that is counter to what they believe.......I don't see anything new about that........History repeats itself

Aquila · #45 06-20-2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I don't know, look at what happened on 9/11 I didn't hear of one house filling up with people because of the events that took place.

Actually... statistical analysis has shown that the church attendance is now lower than it was in 2001. We saw a surge that passed. Most who came to church found it disappointing because it was too "institutionalized", too "programmed", and too political. If you study the house church movement, it began to see growth in the United States as traditional church attendance began dropping. People are turning to more holistic and organic forms of Christianity. It's not an "organization", it's a spiritual movement being shared by more Americans than you think. In fact if two or more Christians meet, share the Word, and pray together at home they are essentially "house churching". This is becoming more and more common to do regularly. In fact the vast majority of Americans (across all denominations) who believe the Bible and admit to being Christian... don't go to church regularly. They admit that they read devotionals, listen to Christian music, and "hang out with other Christians", though they don't go to church. In a sense... the majority of Americans house church.

But all that isn't the point. The point is... unlike the current system that so many adore, it's not about numbers. It's about a "way of life". Many families, even Apostolics (and perhaps some are posting on this site) have decided that the instutional church isn't meeting their spiritual needs and have chosen to simply read, study, worship, and witness at home, in the care, or when at a cafe. It's "Christianity without walls". They aren't focused on filling houses, or buildings, or organizations. They are focused on propagating a Christian way of life where everyone's calling is realized, without the abuses, extortion, and hurt caused by the institutional or traditional churches.

Aquila · #46 06-20-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

Can't understand your simple statements? Must be because I'm under 40, huh? It is quite easy, however, to understand your thinly veiled arrogance and know-it-all attitude. I see it all over your posts.

You implied "all", and have now shifted to "very high percentage". What a concession.

Moving on.

People like him hate our generation and see nothing good in us.. and there are too many like him. That's why so many of us are choosing not to sit under their bully pulpits.

*AQuietPlace* · #47 06-20-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I don't know, look at what happened on 9/11 I didn't hear of one house filling up with people because of the events that took place.

Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that there were many house prayer meetings during those days. And in-home Bible studies, etc.

Aquila · #48 06-20-2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

Carpenter, the topic of this thread is something that is on my mind almost 24/7.

God is doing a new thing. I want to be a part of it.

Real reformers are, more often than not, persecuted for their attempts at change.

I pray that the generation that follows me never has to deal with the issues my generation has.

IMO, we have been given a raw deal.

The generation before us (THE ELDERS) didn't want to let go of anything, and backed us into a no-win theological quandry.

The generation that is coming after us wants nothing to do with rules based religion. They are leaving it in droves.

Bridging these two group-thinks is much more than difficult.

I was in church a few weeks back and heard a pastor I truly love and respect preaching about how we need to win our world to Christ. He was crying and snotting all over the place. It was moving. He was also talking about how we need more churches and more efforts to reach the lost. Again, it was moving. But it was all a show. I think he means it on an emotional level... but when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road he doesn't mean what he's saying. Why? There are 5 men that I know of that are qualified to pastor who have served in his church for nearly 10-15. Of these five 2 have licenses. They have begged, pleaded, threatened, tried to negotiate, you name it... he will not release them. He keeps them jumping hoops with one ministry or another while the fire of their God given vision is dying inside them. I was in a men's group meeting and I just had to say something. The pastor made a remark about sending men of God and daughter churches, I just laughed a little and he asked me why I laughed. I said, "Because there are men in this church who are more than ready to start a daughter work under you... but you won't release them. As sure as I sit here right now, in two years, there will not be a daughter work and those very same men will be sitting on the very same pews just as frustrated as they are today... and there will not be a single daughter work." You could have heard a pen drop. He closed the meeting and asked to see me in his office. There he lectured me about respecting his "authority". I got the message. I've not done that kind of thing again. But... it's been five years. No daughter work. Those five men? Well 4 are still jumping through hoops and one actually left to follow the call of God without the Pastor's blessing.

They are going to die with their music inside them.

EA · #49 06-20-2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I was in church a few weeks back and heard a pastor I truly love and respect preaching about how we need to win our world to Christ. He was crying and snotting all over the place. It was moving. He was also talking about how we need more churches and more efforts to reach the lost. Again, it was moving. But it was all a show. I think he means it on an emotional level... but when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road he doesn't mean what he's saying. Why? There are 5 men that I know of that are qualified to pastor who have served in his church for nearly 10-15. Of these five 2 have licenses. They have begged, pleaded, threatened, tried to negotiate, you name it... he will not release them. He keeps them jumping hoops with one ministry or another while the fire of their God given vision is dying inside them. I was in a men's group meeting and I just had to say something. The pastor made a remark about sending men of God and daughter churches, I just laughed a little and he asked me why I laughed. I said, "Because there are men in this church who are more than ready to start a daughter work under you... but you won't release them. As sure as I sit here right now, in two years, there will not be a daughter work and those very same men will be sitting on the very same pews just as frustrated as they are today... and there will not be a single daughter work." You could have heard a pen drop. He closed the meeting and asked to see me in his office. There he lectured me about respecting his "authority". I got the message. I've not done that kind of thing again. But... it's been five years. No daughter work. Those five men? Well 4 are still jumping through hoops and one actually left to follow the call of God without the Pastor's blessing.

They are going to die with their music inside them.

I see this type of thing often.

Who is more to blame, the pastor, or the men who lack the ..... to get out on their own - with or without some sort of mystic "blessing?"

Real leaders find a way to live out their calling.

And btw, I am not excusing that pastor.

berkeley · #50 06-20-2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I see this type of thing often.

Who is more to blame, the pastor, or the men who lack the ..... to get out on their own - with or without some sort of mystic "blessing?"

Real leaders find a way to live out their calling.

And btw, I am not excusing that pastor.

And it all goes back to "submit to my authority"
and "if I feel that it's time for you to move on, I'll let you know"

this one is my fav:
"If I guide you in the wrong direction, God will honor you and bless you for respecting my authority"