The Times...They are a-Changin'

[berkeley]

Aquila,

I love the "Christianity without Walls" concept. IMO, it should be the norm asside from the "Christianity with Walls." Pastors are supposed to feed the sheep with knowledge and understanding. The job of the ministry within the walls is to equip the saints to live outside of the walls. Bear with me, I am just a simple minded guy from the fertile valleys of California.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by CC1

The spirit of the age we live in has a lot to do with this. I see a lack of commitment in many aspects of culture, not just the church.

It is a day of self centeredness and narcissism where people do not want any "structure". Anything that might oppose their will and whims is avoided.

You've made some very good points. But I think for some it's an issue of they just want Christian simplicity. For the first 300 years or so of Christianity we didn't have big buildings or professional elders. The office of "elder" or "pastor" was a calling on an individual with the gift to pastor... it wasn't an office held by one man governing about 150 people in a big building. Christians gathered in homes, fields, catacombs, and safe public places. Each gathering or "assembly" may contain four or five brothers who had the gift to pastor and advise other Christians. Most, like Paul, opened their homes regularly to teach the Word of God. Paul describes how church should be done in I Corinthians 14, take into consideration this was all done while gathered in someone's home...

I Corinthians 14:26-33 (NIV)
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

The Christians in Paul's day were admonished that when they came together everyone should have a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Paul makes the point that everyone should come to the gathering with something to give and edify the body spiritually. If someone has an utterance from the Lord in tongues, that is fine, however, such utterances should only be done by two or at most by three, one at a time, and one should interpret. If the gift of interpretation wasn't present they should become quiet and pray. In each gathering two or three elders were to be the primary teachers. And if someone in the group has a revelation, or a thought to share, whoever is speaking was to stop and allow the brother with the thought to share to speak. This was so that ALL might prophesy in turn and so that all might be encouraged. Those brothers who truly have a prophetic gift are to remain subject to the three governing elders who guided the meeting, instructed, and made corrections leading one into a better understanding of Christ.

Many read this and hunger for this kind of organic simplicity. I'd much rather attend a small gathering where everyone was able to contribute their understanding and the entire group can be edified by each other. Today, I go to church and I stare at the back of someone's head. I look to my side and see a row of noses. We're all quiet, expecting a paid professional to deliver "something" that might apply to our lives. And oh yea... most want it to be entertaining, humorous at times, and captivating. The more charismatic he is... the more anointed most think he is. We break his monologue when cued by the organ or when we hear that "inflection" that tells us "it's time to get up and shout". And the music is moving. We have a team of trained volunteers. They are wonderful. But they don't always sing the song that's on some of our hearts... and it's rare or next to never when a layman stands and says, "I have this song that's been on my heart all day. I'd like to share it...I don't want to sing it alone....please sing it with me."

It just seems like it turns ministry and corporate worship into a spectator sport.

The first church spread like wildfire. Never had there been such power and growth. How did they do it without all the buildings, programs, paid professionals, musical teams, etc?

I do believe that Christians should meet and edify one another. I just don't think it has to be in a building filled with a couple hundred people, with a service led by a paid professional. It can be in a living room over coffee with a hand full of Christian friends and family. Those who have the calling and understanding can guide the meeting, advise, and counsel. If one person is hurting... all can weep with them. When one person is celebrating all can celebrate with them. Everyone can share something the Lord has laid upon their hearts. You'd be amazed how often in house church gatherings over half of the group will have had the Lord lay the same instruction or issue on their hearts. Sometimes it's about an unknown issue one is wrestling or struggling with. It's a sobering moment of spiritual confirmation that God is moving in our midst.

This can take place in homes, restaurants, coffee houses, taverns, parks, ... you name it. There are no "members". Everyone is free to move about as they please. Some visit to get the fellowship they don't get in their bigger traditional churches. They are free to come and go. Some work odd hours or because of work can't attend church on Sunday's or Wednesdays... so they visit on their off days with the elder of the home. They are free to come and go.

It's not about a new structure or system... it's about a new way of actually living Christianity on the front lines without walls. It's about a Christianity that more resembles a family than an institution.

The Lord's Supper is celebrated in earnest... not with the Catholic Communion ceremony that even most Apostolic churches have with the wafer and thimble of grape juice. It's a full meal wherein the gathering looks forward to the day when we will sup with Jesus in the Kingdom. It opens with a prayer. A single loaf of bread and a decanter of wine is blessed; and the body and blood are called to mind as the loaf is passed from person to person and all tearing off a piece of it. While tearing this single loaf to pieces it's not uncommon for one to start crying. As the wine is passed... the tears turn to joy and our atonement is remembered. The meal is often lively and filled with laughter. It's not uncommon for the conversation to become a house church service over the meal with the elders teaching and brothers sharing their insights.

I love the house church meetings I've attended. I would like to go more but my obligations to work and traditional church often keep me too busy.

If I were Satan... I'd pray we stayed in our safe traditional churches. They provide a significant amount of distraction for most Christians and it breeds an entertain me spirit where the saints are lulled into being a sanctified audience applauding a paid hireling.

I don't fault pastors of traditional churches and their uneasiness with the simple church movement. I mean... most of these men have made a career out of it. They have everything to loose should this catch on significantly in their community. I had a pastor who I talked to about the house church movement say to me, "If I were a house church pastor, how would I support my family?" I just smiled and said, "I believe if that's what a man is called to do, God will provide." I wanted to say, "Get a job!"

[*AQuietPlace*]

I think it's very clear when you read the New Testament that our model is not based on the biblical model.

For instance, this part:


29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Who is weighing carefully what is said? Who is going to object if they weigh, and come up short? These days, no one is going to correct "the pastor" if they feel he is wrong. There is no one in the church to do so. Or as the KJV says - 'to judge'.

Or:

James 5:14 (English Standard Version)

14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him,(A) anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Our New Modern Version would have to read: if anyone is sick, let him call the pastor.

The NT model seemed to be based upon a group of men who led the church. Not just one man.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

OK I will be serious - for a minute at least.

What CC1 posted is exactly what UPC hardliners hope to avoid by towing the line with something approaching counter culture.

The spirit of the age (Zeitgeist in German) is not favorable to anything absolute - therefore the church needs a clear sound, they reason - a black and white for everything.

A pastor that not only has rules but revels in drawing distinctions between those real Christians that follow the code and those who are "compromisers".

In fairness to those of this mindset - IT DOES WORK for some people. However, I do not think it ever makes for a very strong body.

Eureka, I think you have brought up a very important point. An emphasis on the legalism (enforced distinctives) does provide a pastor with a false comfort zone.

The clothesline dress code provides an instant visual feeback to a preacher where he can judge (no matter how falsely) the success of his preaching and the status of his saints with God.

That is a natural reaction to an age that spurns absolutes but it is not the right one. The absolutes that pastors should be interested in are Biblical principles. In particular God's moral code and life principles.

If one preaches God's morality and other Christian principles such as love, faithfulness, mercy, servanthood, longsuffering, etc, etc and then equip the saints with the Word, the knowledge of how to have a good prayer life, guidance into Holy Spirit Baptism with empowerment to do right - then a preacher will have a committed saint who will willingly serve God and be a part of the church.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Aquila

People like him hate our generation and see nothing good in us.. and there are too many like him. That's why so many of us are choosing not to sit under their bully pulpits.

You are totally wrong on that because I am at the top end of that generation. It's the times that we are living in and the spirit that is at work in this generation.

But hey...that's par for the course....just be not deceived because God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also receive...this generation is sowing more to the flesh and they will see major destruction, it's Bible

[MamaHen]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

<snip>

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

Very interesting post Carpenter. I don't post on here very often myself - I visit and read, but don't post much. (And I rarely read a whole thread as they tend to explode...) This is some serious food for thought. I think things are coming full circle, and many are going back to the beginning. The VERY beginning. Before the days of organizations and buildings and acronyms and slogans..... I think people are looking to the New Testament, not just for the doctrine and the plan of salvation, but for the blueprint of what church is to begin with. The People. The Ekklesia.

In my humble opinion. :-)

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

The church is changing.

The way we do church is changing.

But I am not concerned.

God WILL have a church.

That's the bottom line!

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Jaxon

Interesting....My wife and I talk about this a good bit......One reason is because she is the personnel manager at a business of around 400 plus people and many of those hired are in the 20 - 30 age range..........I'm not trying to use a broad brush but there is no doubt that there is a different mind set in many in this age bracket.......Many, many are easy come easy go. ...Loyalty indeed is a bygone virtue on the job......here today and gone tommorrow and no two week notice, nothing, one day their at work the next day they are gone..............So it's not just a church thing, no, it's something that reaches inot all areas of their lives........You really can't run a business with employess that have this mindset. For any organization to be successful there has to be stability and structure somewhere............And many times this stability and structure is found in the baby boomer and up generation............Whatever happened to being faithful in all areas of our life?

This is my point exactly that Fritz and Aquilla missed yet land blasted me for.

This disloyalty runs in all areas because on the flip side the businesses are not faithful to their employees either. It is almost a catch 22.

I remember when I was in management we were about to send a girl off to a manager in training school, but I knew that she didn't plan to be around much longer. I was talking to an area manager over me about it because I figured why spend over a thousand dollars on an employee who wasn't staying. His response, "people use corporations and corporations use people, don't worry about it."

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I think it's very clear when you read the New Testament that our model is not based on the biblical model.

For instance, this part:


29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Who is weighing carefully what is said? Who is going to object if they weigh, and come up short?

Does the scripture say to "object" or is it whether you take the word and run with it personally. Remember that Paul also said that things are to be done decently and in order.

These days, no one is going to correct "the pastor" if they feel he is wrong. There is no one in the church to do so. Or as the KJV says - 'to judge'.

consider the scenario, Pastor George teaches something, but parishioner Greg disagrees so he "corrects", but Granny Smith who has been in church for 332 years is going to set both straight...where does it end and who is right.

There is a difference between discussion and correction and doing it in an orderly way.

If you have no level of authority then there is going to be total confusion, plus without clearly defined levels of authority then wolves can more easily come in.

We had a lady who came in a few weeks back that claimed to have a healing ministry. Said everyone she works with gets healed. Come to find out she was a hypnotist. Her "correction" would be very different than the ones who lead the church. Sad to say, some were initially swayed and was going to subject themselves to it, but because they had respect for the pastorate they were kept on course.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

That's the bottom line!

I suppose some will deal with the change in paradigm hoping their emotional response will strengthen the church after all, that is the Apostolic way. Others will lay aside aspects of culture and tradition in order to strengthen the body of Christ.