Sorry - I'm on this forum to learn, but arrogant and misinformed posts like that get under my skin. I enjoy challenging both sides as I test and challenge my own ideas in the process. I'm not identifying myself as a conservative spokesperson, but we have to be fair about the words we throw around. Some are just pure hateful.
Galatians 3:1 is the culmination of the first two chapters where Paul is frustrated with the Galatian church turning away from the the gospel of grace and walking in a spirit of the law/legalism. The jewish christians attempted to force the galatian christians to follow jewish customs for salvation. This made Paul mad. Galatians 3:1 Paul hits the mother load when he asked the Galatians to identify those who bewitched them from turning from the Gospel. It may have been a rhetorical question, but there is no doubt the comparison Paul makes. To make salvation issues out of subjective interpretation of scripture is witchcraft.
Good opening question. In my experiences the people in modest shorts tend to be better christians than those who are appalled at those wearing shorts. Although I would be fair and take it on a case by case basis, I'd probably go with the shorts crowd. In my experience, they seem to be the ones getting things done while those who are appalled are more often the problem than the solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowingPains
It sounds like we like to stay in the abstract but avoid making any application. What if half your church thought short shorts on Sunday was modest and the other half was appalled. How do you settle this?
Where does Paul identify this "spirit" as the spirit of witchcraft. I think we often use too much hyperbole to make a point. This isn't an issue of salvation, it's an issue of ecclesiology.
Again, testing opinions with honest challenges.
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A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
I find some standards to be reminiscent of legalism, but it wasn't what Judaizers were. I mean, read on these folks. It was gruesome and insane. Yes, Paul got angry and told them to mutilate themselves. The fallacy of the argument, however, is that not all who admonish their saints to a particular standard equate those on the basis of salvation -- but the Judaizers did. That's the HUGE difference.
Study the book of Galatians. There are some principles which are errily similar to the situation discussed on this thread. Subjective mandates for salvation does not come from God. As you can see on this thread, the manual for some is more important than the Bible. That is a disturbing trend. Does anyone have the audacity to say bewitch doesn't mean what it says?
Your question was cool. You may not like my answer. But you asked. lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowingPains
Sorry - I'm on this forum to learn, but arrogant and misinformed posts like that get under my skin. I enjoy challenging both sides as I test and challenge my own ideas in the process. I'm not identifying myself as a conservative spokesperson, but we have to be fair about the words we throw around. Some are just pure hateful.
__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
There are very few who do not put standards on par with salvation. Maple Leaf's post questioning the integrity of someone trying to change the status quo of a man made opinion in his own church. Maple Leaf appeared to suggest a well known woman of God had not place in a upci church because her wardrobe wouldn't fit the upci clone mode.
If the standard is not based on salvation, then we should not suppress anyone from being used to their fullest potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowingPains
I find some standards to be reminiscent of legalism, but it wasn't what Judaizers were. I mean, read on these folks. It was gruesome and insane. Yes, Paul got angry and told them to mutilate themselves. The fallacy of the argument, however, is that not all who admonish their saints to a particular standard equate those on the basis of salvation -- but the Judaizers did. That's the HUGE difference.
__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
Your point is irrelevant since years ago the original upci charter was tossed out the window. The original upci charter had nothing to do with subjective clotheslines. The unity clause was ignored by the hardliners.
I've never been told how the clothes nazis expect to enforce teaching and preaching the clothesline doctrine. It it were required to preach, one would figure a minimal number of times per year would suffice. How much witchcraft does one have to preach from the pulpit?
In addition, the manual says nothing about women wearing pants.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Sam do women in tank tops lead worship at your church? Do you have a platform rule different than a recommended/suggested length for modesty?
I can see the Apostle Paul writing a letter to Corinth if the churches started getting off-track, playing poker, and having disputed over money. Most of us would refuse any hints/suggestions toward these behaviors?
Honest question.
I'm always puzzled why people resort to the extremes in an attempt to make their point.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
I'm always puzzled why people resort to the extremes in an attempt to make their point.
Yeah that is an extreme - but not outside reality. I would think there needs to be platform rules of some sort.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
There are very few who do not put standards on par with salvation. Maple Leaf's post questioning the integrity of someone trying to change the status quo of a man made opinion in his own church. Maple Leaf appeared to suggest a well known woman of God had not place in a upci church because her wardrobe wouldn't fit the upci clone mode.
If the standard is not based on salvation, then we should not suppress anyone from being used to their fullest potential.
Hairstyles and dress code aside, it is still typical for many denominations to only have those on the platform that have a reciprocity agreement with them.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I find some standards to be reminiscent of legalism, but it wasn't what Judaizers were. I mean, read on these folks. It was gruesome and insane. Yes, Paul got angry and told them to mutilate themselves. The fallacy of the argument, however, is that not all who admonish their saints to a particular standard equate those on the basis of salvation -- but the Judaizers did. That's the HUGE difference.
I'm with TV1. But you're right that not all equate standards with salvation but most do! I'm personally acquainted with many of them. They will bob and weave and obfuscate but when forced to answer they clearly attach salvation to standards. It is clearly Galatians 3 and deja vu all over again. There is no "huge" difference!
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