Women Cutting Their Hair, Please Help.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Wow, very weird to see this thread from two years ago. My wife and I both were still UPC and still followed all the standards. Seems like a lifetime ago.

That's why I'm very glad that the threads from the original FCF and NFCF are lost and gone forever! I don't think I could handle reading threads in which I actually argued FOR standards! And I was probably all sarcastic and smug about it too!

I'd have to build a time machine, just so I could go back in time and rebuke myself (with a smack upside the head!)

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Wow, very weird to see this thread from two years ago. My wife and I both were still UPC and still followed all the standards. Seems like a lifetime ago.

This has been an incredible journey, one that could only have been experienced by following Christ. If the last two years held such growth and spiritual awareness, I can hardly wait to see what the next two years is going to hold!

[CAD/JPY]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Ok, so basically I am UPC and have been all of my life. And as much as I want to believe what I have been taught it is very hard for me to get that a woman's hair should be uncut based on 1 Corinthians 11.

Can anyone help me reconcile myself with the UPC doctrine?

Sorry, if someone has allready posted these points, but I didn't want to read through 11 pages of posts before I answered your question.

The UPC doctrine of I Cor. 11 gets "uncut" from two areas, Strong's Concordance base definition of shorn and the dictionary meaing of shorn, being the past tense of shear, and shear means "to cut". Lines up well with Strongs.

Now here is the probably with that one. The other Biblical scriptures where shorn is used are refering to hair being cut close to the skin. Even Paul's own head was "shorn" in Acts 18:18 because he had a vow.

We make light of trinatarian baptism because they don't use Jesus name, but we turn right around and do the same thing with the "uncut" hair doctrine. We don't use dictionaries for defining baptism in Jesus name, so why do we use them to support a dress standard? WHEN ALL THE OTHER SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

People ask, how long is long then? Well, that is easily answered. The hair is used in reference to a women wearing a veil when praying or prophesying before God, it actually translates in ICor. 11:15 that the "hair replaces the veil". Notice it does not say "long hair replaces the veil" just simply "hair replaces the veil", but it does say that "long hair" is a glory to the women... again, that is "long hair is a glory to the women, not that long hair is a glory to God.... which we seem to hear more and more of.

So what did the veil cover, it covered the head and shoulders of a woman. That is how they wore the veils back then, and that is similar to what you see today in traditional middle east culture. So if a women truly needs a length defined that would be one.

Some UPCI people take the premise that long is supposed to mean you should allow a women's hair to grow as long as nature will let it. Because this refers to the order of creation, and let nature teach you what to do. I have a very difficult time seeing it in I Cor 11 that way, but to those that do, I believe in good conscience before God they must INSIST THAT MEAN SHAVE THEIR HEADS... because even a little bit of hair covering a man's head while they pray or prophesy would be a shame before God. That is for those who really believe it like that, they have to add the same principle to the men in the church also. It's not just something our women in the church have to bear the burden of.

And yes, I am frustrated, and hold license with the UPCI, and went to the right Bible College, and grew up in this, etc. etc. No, I'm not rebellious, but I believe we lose a lot of people who can't accept what they don't see. So when we cram it down their throat as a holiness standard, they can't help but be a little worried...

That doesn't mean we throw away the UPCI. Overall I believe very much with what they teach, especially our fundamental doctrine. I think the "uncut" hair was one of the conservative standards that grabbed a hold, and just hung in there. You see liberal thoughts are easily shot down, but to argue against a conservative belief is a lot harder... how can you fault someone for being too conservative? I mean, this is between them and God.

If you read those last two sentences, and though "Uh huh, that is right"... well, you have forgetten their is a danger in getting too conservative also.... no different than going too liberal. The Bible tells us that we will be cursed for adding and taking away from God's word.

Blessings

[tbpew]

so at least everybody here at AFF shares God's expectation that women are to have long hair. That will certainly serve the beauty of distinction among the genders.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by tbpew

so at least everybody here at AFF shares God's expectation that women are to have long hair. That will certainly serve the beauty of distinction among the genders.

Paul gave an example or an analogy using a womens hair. I don't see where God expects a woman to have long hair, as we OP's define long hair.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Paul gave an example or an analogy using a womens hair. I don't see where God expects a woman to have long hair, as we OP's define long hair.

Two questions for Freeatlast...
How do you define LONG hair?
Do you think that God sees hair length as a witness that differentiates the males and females among humans?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Paul gave an example or an analogy using a womens hair. I don't see where God expects a woman to have long hair, as we OP's define long hair.

I agree with this. No matter how much I argue the various points on this passage I know deep down that Paul is using womans hair as an illustration. That is all it is. So simple yet we make it so hard.

Paul is using the physical covering as an illustration of the spiritual covering. I don't see any reason to argue Greek or grammar or meaning of shorn or shaven when hair isn't even the subject of this text.

The point of the text is submission to God's order and God given roles to the male and female.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I agree with this. No matter how much I argue the various points on this passage I know deep down that Paul is using womans hair as an illustration. That is all it is. So simple yet we make it so hard.

Paul is using the physical covering as an illustration of the spiritual covering. I don't see any reason to argue Greek or grammar or meaning of shorn or shaven when hair isn't even the subject of this text.

The point of the text is submission to God's order and God given roles to the male and female.

delta,
do you think LONG would be a good condition for something that was to be a covering?
Do you think God has purposed for women to have long hair?

Please know that I understand what LONG means will be decided by each woman who is seeking to follow where God's spirit leads...but is LONG hair something that pertains to the woman?

[Falla39]

My thoughts:

The same Spirit that inspired Paul to write the 16 verses in 1Cor. 11, inspired my late
paternal Grandmother Lizzie, to no longer cut her hair, after she received His Spirit.
This same Spirit also led my late mother, her mother, me, our three daughters, and on
and on.
It does no good to try to "make or force" an adult to do something they do not see or
believe. If the Spirit doesn't do it, it won't get done. If we are led by the Spirit of God,
we are HIS sons and daughters.
I do not, nor will I, try to tell others what to do. Parents are to "train up" and when they
are adults, it will be in God's Hands.

Paul knew by inspiration of God, that there would be those who would contend! If any MAN seem.... LOL!

Blessings,

Falla39

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Do you think that God sees hair length as a witness that differentiates the males and females among humans?

No, it was the beard.

Both men and women have hair that grows and grows*, but only men have beards.

(*although if left completely to nature, a woman's hair will generally get much longer and be fuller than most men's... even in the hippie days, a man with waist-length hair was unusual... most of the men had to be content with shoulder-length)



---- this post was partially tongue-in-cheek, not meant to be a serious commentary on I Cor. 11.