John 17

[*AQuietPlace*]

This chapter can make a Oneness person's head spin. How do you explain all of this 'you and I' wording?





John 17

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come;glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them[b] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.

20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

[A.W. Bowman]

Excellent question. But, just for clarification, you mean, like in John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her [Marry], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And,

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This chapter can make a Oneness person's head spin. How do you explain all of this 'you and I' wording?





John 17

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come;glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them[b] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.

20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

having been raised oneness i can tell u that doctrine is flawed; in essence it denies the Son. I am not Trinitarian, however I do believe in the eternal son of God.

Jesus was the second Adam. He was a man of like passions filled with the fullness of God. He had complete access to His father. He now sits at his right hand ruling and reigning the throne Elohim promised to David.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This chapter can make a Oneness person's head spin. How do you explain all of this 'you and I' wording?





John 17

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come;glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them[b] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.

20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

There are no really good, cut and dry answers to your question. It all depends if you believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh and that there is only one God. How you resolve what happened when the God we read about in the OT, the God who depicts Himself in the OT as one person, becomes flesh.

Here's a link to one Jason Dulle's, a Oneness scholar, thoughts: http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstu...susprayers.htm

Here's what David Bernard has to say from his book, The Oneness of God:

The Prayers of Christ
Do the prayers of Christ indicate a distinction of
persons between Jesus and the Father? No. On the
contrary, His praying indicates a distinction between
the Son of God and God. Jesus prayed in His humanity,
not in His deity. If the prayers of Jesus demonstrate
that the divine nature of Jesus is different from
the Father, then Jesus is inferior to the Father in deity.
In other words, if Jesus prayed as God then His position
in the Godhead would be somehow inferior to
—176—
the other “persons.” This one example effectively destroys
the concept of a trinity of coequal persons.
How can God pray and still be God? By definition,
God in His omnipotence has no need to pray
and in His oneness has no other to whom He can
pray. If the prayers of Jesus prove there are two persons
in the Godhead, then one of those persons is
subordinate to the other and therefore not fully or
truly God.
What, then, is the explanation of the prayers of
Christ? It can only be that the man Jesus prayed to
the eternal Spirit of God. God did not need help; only
the man did. As Jesus said at the Garden of Gethsemane,
“The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak”
(Matthew 26:41). Hebrews 5:7 makes it clear that
Jesus needed to pray only during “the days of his
flesh.” During the prayer at Gethsemane, the human
will submitted to the divine will. Through prayer He
as a human learned to submit and be obedient to the
Spirit of God (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:7-8). This
was not a struggle between two divine wills but the
submission of the human will to the divine will. As a
man Jesus submitted Himself to and received strength
from the Spirit of God.
Some may object to this explanation, contending
that it means Jesus prayed to Himself. However, we
must realize that, unlike any other human being, Jesus
had two perfect and complete natures—humanity and
deity. What would be absurd or impossible for an ordinary
person is not so strange with Jesus. We do not
say Jesus prayed to Himself, for this would incorrectly
imply that the man was the same as the Spirit.
—177—
Rather, we say that the man prayed to the Spirit of
God, while also recognizing that the Spirit dwelt in
the man.
The choice is simple. Either Jesus as God prayed
to the Father or Jesus as man prayed to the Father.
If the former were true, then we have a form of subordinationism
or Arianism in which one person in the
Godhead is inferior to, not coequal with, another person
in the Godhead. This contradicts the biblical concept
of one God, the full deity of Jesus, and the
omnipotence of God. If the second alternative is correct,
and we believe that it is, then no distinction of
persons in the Godhead exists. The only distinction is
between humanity and deity, not between God and God.

[Sam]

from pages 18 -20 of “Is Jesus In The Godhead Or Is the Godhead In Jesus?”
by Bro. Gordon Magee

Are Christ’s Prayers an Embarrassment?

A dear trinitarian brother came to me one day and said, “Brother Magee, I think that is a great embarrassment to you Oneness people—that Jesus prayed.”

I said, “You are wrong. But I want to tell you something: it is a great embarrassment to you.”

He asked, “How would it be an embarrassment to me? I have never viewed it as such.”

I replied, “What happened that night in the garden when Jesus prayed?”

“Oh,” he answered, “it is simple. If you believe in the trinity, it is easy.”

I asked him to make it easy for me.

“Well,” he said, “Here is the second person praying to the first person. It is as simple as that.”

I said, “Just a moment, please! Was the second person God?”

“Yes, certainly, the second person was God,” he assured me.

“And was the first person God?”

Again he assured me that the answer was in the affirmative.

Then I asked, “God prays to God?”

“Yes,” was the firm reply.

I said, “Sir, if you pardon me for saying it, that exposition of yours, to my mind, is confusion twice confounded. Would you explain to me, please, how a divine person could pray in
His divinity without undeifying Himself?” If we ever hear someone praying, we know they need help, and God most assuredly does not need help. A divine person does not need help; only men need help. The trinitarian explanation of John 17—that we find one divine person praying to another divine person—is an absurdity. We see in John 17 humanity praying to deity.

The trinitarian brother asked, “Then did not He pray to Himself?”

“No! He did not pray to Himself!”

“What did He do?”

I replied, “In His human nature He prayed to His divine nature.”

“Well,” he said, “that is praying to Himself!”

“You can have it that way; if Jesus were an ordinary person I would agree with you that that is praying to Himself. But Jesus was not ordinary—Jesus was extraordinary. Jesus was God and man!” If Jesus Christ had a dual nature why then should we think it incredible that He should perform a dual role?

There is a wrong way of saying the right thing. For example, I would not say that God died. No one could bring me to say that God died. For obvious reasons, God cannot die. But I do not hesitate to say that He who died was God. It is simply the right way of saying the right thing. Paul said to Timothy, “Hold fast the form of sound words” (II Timothy 1:13). There is a certain form of sound language that cannot be condemned. Let us say the right thing the right way!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This chapter can make a Oneness person's head spin. How do you explain all of this 'you and I' wording?





John 17

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come;glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them[b] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.

20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

It is only problematic if you believe Jesus was both the "you" and "I".

While the only begotten Son, Jesus, was truly God and truly man, I do not believe he was the Father in heaven he communed with. The father is God, outside of, and apart from the incarnation.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

It is only problematic if you believe Jesus was both the "you" and "I".

While the only begotten Son, Jesus, was truly God and truly man, I do not believe he was the Father in heaven he communed with. The father is God, outside of, and apart from the incarnation.

So you dont believe Jesus is the Father?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

It is only problematic if you believe Jesus was both the "you" and "I".

While the only begotten Son, Jesus, was truly God and truly man, I do not believe he was the Father in heaven he communed with. The father is God, outside of, and apart from the incarnation.

Jesus as man was the "I"
Jesus as God was the "You"
according to some Oneness theology

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sam

Jesus as man was the "I"
Jesus as God was the "You"
according to some Oneness theology

How else could it be? Its either that or there are two Gods.

[Norman]

This chapter can make a Oneness person's head spin. How do you explain all of this 'you and I' wording?

As stated in another answer, I see it as more of a problem for trinitarians.
John 14:9 - 10.
I think some people do over-simplify the matter; God was never at any time totally confined to any physical location. While Jesus walked on earth, God was still in heaven, and in Jesus also.