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  #21  
Old 08-11-2009, 02:49 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
Not sure what this has to do with anything. I simply called into question your statements that, "They are multiple YHWH'S. The end result is Tritheism."

I have spoken to plenty. Many of my Christian brothers are Trinitarian, and the Mennonite church I was part of when I met the Lord was "Trinitarian". None of these would agree to YOUR characterization of God.

Bottom line.. what you accuse - what you say they believe, is not at all what they think about God. Those types of fabrications are inflammatory and cause great harm to the body of Christ.
So you believe I am fabricating the statement that Trinitarians believe in multiple YWHW'S?

Here is a quote from AnsweringIslam a Trinitarian site held in high regard by many of their elite.

Quote:
Genesis 19:24 and the New Testament

Though the New Testament never quotes Genesis 19:24 directly, it does make remarks relevant to the judgment of Sodom and the identity of the persons called LORD or Yahweh on that occasion. As said, when coupled with the foregoing these remarks are tantamount to explicit testimony that Genesis 19:24 means, when properly interpreted, “God the Son brought down the rain from God the Father.
http://www.answering-islam.org/autho...initarian.html

They as true classic Trinitarians say there is more than one person called YHWH. This is what I mean by multiple YHWH'S.

Notice also the last phrase of the paragraph: God the Son brought down the rain from God the Father.

Two YHWH persons. Two God persons.

To me that is inflammatory and very harmful to the disciple of Yeshua Messiah and is by no means a fabrication of their doctrine. They are not ashamed of it. Yet Oneness believers defend them and accuse us that oppose the error of fabricating and hurting the body!
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  #22  
Old 08-11-2009, 02:56 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Yes I realize that as did Eckstat. He was as I understand an attendee of an Assemblies of God Bible College.

Each of the persons is fully God. They are co equal and co eternal. They are multiple YHWH'S.

The end result is Tritheism. I understand John Eckstat brought many into Oneness truth. We should attempt to do the same.
I disagree that it's Tritheism. They don't go that far. They conclude that this great divine mystery of the godhead is still summed up as "one God" and that Jesus is LORD.
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  #23  
Old 08-11-2009, 03:02 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So you believe I am fabricating the statement that Trinitarians believe in multiple YWHW'S?

Here is a quote from AnsweringIslam a Trinitarian site held in high regard by many of their elite.



http://www.answering-islam.org/autho...initarian.html

They as true classic Trinitarians say there is more than one person called YHWH. This is what I mean by multiple YHWH'S.

Notice also the last phrase of the paragraph: God the Son brought down the rain from God the Father.

Two YHWH persons. Two God persons.

To me that is inflammatory and very harmful to the disciple of Yeshua Messiah and is by no means a fabrication of their doctrine. They are not ashamed of it. Yet Oneness believers defend them and accuse us that oppose the error of fabricating and hurting the body!
I see your point, MCD. They call this a "mystery" that God operates in a triune nature, much like we claim Jesus the Christ to be 100% God and 100% man. Do I think it's not the more reveletory idea of the godhead? I don't. But to call them tritheists is to misunderstand them completely. The most important thing about the godhead, is understanding that Jesus is God in flesh. To that, almost all agree.
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  #24  
Old 08-11-2009, 03:03 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
I disagree that it's Tritheism. They don't go that far. They conclude that this great divine mystery of the godhead is still summed up as "one God" and that Jesus is LORD.
LORD is an English replacement word for YHWH. They do believe he is YHWH. Yet they believe someone else is also YHWH. Two persons who are both called YHWH and are both God.

See the article I placed in my last post.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 08-11-2009 at 03:10 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-11-2009, 03:10 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
I see your point, MCD. They call this a "mystery" that God operates in a triune nature, much like we claim Jesus the Christ to be 100% God and 100% man. Do I think it's not the more reveletory idea of the godhead? I don't. But to call them tritheists is to misunderstand them completely. The most important thing about the godhead, is understanding that Jesus is God in flesh. To that, almost all agree.
But which God came in the flesh? Since scripture only knows one God even the Father (Malachi 2:10) they are wrong. Why? They teach God the Son another person apart from God the Father came in the flesh.

So who came in flesh? God or the second person of God? What did Paul say?

16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim. 3:16

Why did he NOT say the second person of God was manifest? Because he only believed in One God.
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  #26  
Old 08-12-2009, 09:04 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

I have asked the following question over at CARM. Its a Trinitarian site some of us frequent.

Are there Three Persons Of YHWH?

So far not much interest but here is a direct quote from one well learned Trinitarian there. He has over 8000 posts there so he is not a novice in this discussion.

Quote:
YHWH is the Jewish name of God. If all three distinct Persons are the one 'ĕlôhîym, then yes, they are all called yehôvâh.
So it is no fabrication that they believe and teach three distinct persons called YHWH.

http://www.christiandiscussionforums...d.php?t=187006
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  #27  
Old 08-12-2009, 03:28 PM
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Esther Esther is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

I copied and pasted the first post and emailed to my Baptist cousin. This is what he responded.

The Doctrine of the Trinity is not only foundational to true Christianity, but has also been well established by sound Biblical exegesis over the centuries. Contrary to oneness teachings, Biblical Christians (Trinitarians) do not teach that "Jesus and God are two separate and distinct beings." It is important that we study the Bible in the context of its entirety and not remove individual verses upon which to build doctrine. True Biblical Christianity teaches that:

1. God is one. (Deu 6:4-5)
2. The Father is God (Isa 43:10-11) (Isa 44:6)
3. Jesus is God (Joh 1:1) (Joh 10:30) (COL 2:9)
4. The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is God (Act 5:3-4)
5. God is one (Exo 20:2-3)

One God in three persons. The Trinity.

To deny the true triune nature of the Godhead as revealed in Scripture is not only to create a god in your own image and in accordance to your finite understanding but it is also to deny the very Atonement itself. Unless Jesus suffered and died as a true "person" (not just simply a manifestation of God), fully God and fully man, distinct/separate from (while still one with) the Father, the Atonement is incomplete and we remain in our sin. Trinitarian doctrine accepts the reality that God is far beyond our mortal comprehension and that " ... The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" (LUK 18:27). Simply put, where God is concerned, some things must be accepted by faith.

The Bible teaches each of the above five points of the doctrine as the absolute truth of God. The only way to reconcile the points is to believe Jesus when he tells us that LUK 18:27 "... The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" and believe the whole word of God when it tells us that God is indeed ONE, and that The Father is God, and Jesus is God, and The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is God, and that they all interact with mankind, and each other, as distinct Persons (not separate beings). Simply put, the God of the Bible is One God, an eternally existent triune God. The Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Three in one.

Adherents to the oneness doctrines are absolutely correct when they state that "the reason it is essential for us to know this (the true identity of Jesus) is because the validity, authority, and truthfulness of all he taught depends on his identity as God." The question here is "Which God?"

Make no mistake, Trinitarian Doctrine teaches that Jesus is God. Jesus, Fully God, Fully Man, God the Son, The second person of the ONE true triune God of the Bible.

Three Persons - As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (MAT 3:16-17)

One God - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 JOHN 5:7 KJV)




About the only three denominations I know adhering to the oneness doctoring are the Jehovah Witnesses, the LDS, and the UPC.
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  #28  
Old 08-12-2009, 08:46 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
I have asked the following question over at CARM. Its a Trinitarian site some of us frequent.

Are there Three Persons Of YHWH?

So far not much interest but here is a direct quote from one well learned Trinitarian there. He has over 8000 posts there so he is not a novice in this discussion.



So it is no fabrication that they believe and teach three distinct persons called YHWH.

http://www.christiandiscussionforums...d.php?t=187006

Sorry Michael, I have had a long day.

Why do you think "learned Trinitarians" will confess and teach three distinct persons in the Godhead, yet would be appalled by statements like yours?

Statements like "They are multiple YHWH'S. The end result is Tritheism." or any other insinuation that Trinitarians affirm multiple YHWH's are fabrication - yes.

Go ahead and defend Oneness, but not at expense of truth, please.
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I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves

Last edited by Hoovie; 08-12-2009 at 08:55 PM.
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  #29  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:37 PM
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Neck Neck is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Here is some information on my late Father...

My father John A Eckstadt was born Nov 10th, 1934 and passed away on March 13th, 1978. He was raised in a home where his mother had him reading everything she could find from the time he was 2 years old. She was a devout Catholic and dreamed one day he might become a priest. My grandfather was a WW1 Navy hero and a Brooklyn Poilce officer between WW1 and WW2. He enlisted again in the Navy at the age of 47 upon the sudden death of my grandmother at the age of 33 from breat cancer. My fathers only sibling his sister Florence passed away in 1945 at the age of 13 from Leukemia. My grandfather did not make it back in time to see her before she died. After WW2 my grandfather returned and worked for the military division of the NY police Department where he investigated crimes committed by and upon Ex-GI's.

My father at the age of 16 in 1950 started lifthing weights and became a body builder. By the age of 17 he was running with the wrong crowd and began drinking. My grandfather married a dancer and they were drunk on the weekends and fighting during the week.

At the young age of 17 my father ran with a friend who was jewish. As they walked passed a synagouge. The sign read, "Here ole Israel, the Lord our God is One". His friend made this statement, "John do you believe in God?"

My father made this comment, I don't think that I believe in God! This young man made this statement to my father. "John one day you will believe there is a God and only one God".

Shortly thereafter my dad became close friends to a new kid on the block. His dad was newly planted AOG pastor. They soon became very close friends. My father was invited to church and he found it exciting to hear the preaching and then try and refute what the minister had to say. He began to ask his Jewish friend if he could help translate from the Hebrew what some old testament words meant to them. He received the HQ in Brooklyn at an AOG church at the age of 18.

This was the start of my fathers love for the original Hebrew and then it came full circle to the original Greek. It was not uncommon for my father when in cities around the country to visit synagogues and sit for hours with the Rabbi's.

My father was not one to follow the crowd he searched scriptures for meaning and original truths. He was on a quest for revelation that he believed was found in the original meanings of the written word.

My father was scouted by major league scouts at the age of 17. He once hit a ball over 450 feet in front of scouts. That later drafted his friend and classmate, Frank Torre the older brother of Yankee's and now Dodgers manager Joe Torre. Their fathers worked out of the same police station in Brooklyn. My father's path was not baseball, but it bacame the ministry.

The AOG pastor that taught my father and helped encourage him to attend Bible College is still alive and lives in Springfield, MO at the AOG assisted living center for retired AOG ministers, he is 95 years old.

That should be a message to all pastors, how many exceptional young men have been looked over? Thank God for that gifted pastor.

My father was caught praying in tounges in his home by his father who kicked him out of the house. He then went to live his senior year in HS with AOG pastor. My dad attended AOG Zion Bible College in Rhode Island.

They graduated him with a full degree after 1 year and half. He met my mother they married just after graduating in 1959. She attended four years and upon graduation they traveled as Evangelist in the AOG not together but by themselves. They met up every couple of weeks to be together.

My father while preaching in what he thought was an AOG church in New Brunswick, Canada. A church in the home town of my Mother's, father and mother. They came to the USA in 1921 and moved to the city of Boston, where my mother was born and raised.

In the middle of his sermon he quoted Isaiah 9:6, when he did the church went nuts. He then ate dinner and then found out he was in a wacky Jesus only church. He had to preach that night and that afternoon all he could hear was, "The Lord our God is one". He began to run scriptures through his mind. He preached at 2 other churches on that trip in NB. A few months later he was back at the same church. These 3 pastors all began to fast and pray that he would come to a revelation. One sunday afternoon they all came to the pastors house to talk with him. When they walked into the house he told them, no need. I want to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

He did this without talking to my mother. Her older brother was married to the daughter of an AOG headquarters offical. My uncle Ron Prince later switched to Southern Baptist and pastored for 30 plus years in Minden, LA with over 3000 members. Where he became close friends of T.W. Barnes. My uncle told me near the end of his life that he was baptised in the name of Jesus. My uncle Ron was a real friend of the late Martin Luther King JR.. That is a whole other great story.

My mother at first faught my dad on his being rebaptized. She then follewed as did many of our family members throughout the 1960's.

The article that Michael the Disciple quotes is from the Dec 1964 UPC Pentecostal Herald. If anyone wants that in PDF send me your email addess.

In 1963 my father was offered a church in Pittsburgh that ran 1500 saints but it was AOG. He had just moved over to the UPC. Then GS A.T. Morgan told my fathar to visit all the state Superintendent's. Of which my father completed the visit to almost all the states by the time I was born in July 1964.

My father proceeded to travel as an evangelist for the years to come. He was a full-time teacher of theology at PBI, JCM and Mark Hanby's Wide World of Truth. He was a man of revelation and started teaching on Soul Sleep years ahead of his time. He also pastored chuches in the AOG and UPC.

He lived life with passion, love and a God fearing honesty that I have rarely witnessed. He was born a few months after Elvis Pressly and died a few months after Elvis. They both passed away at the age of 43.

If you really want to see what he believed you need to hear Eckstadt-vs- Eckstadt. Where he preaches a Trinity message and then preaches a oneness message and then explains the difference.

He once converted many in a church in Bristol, Conn from the UPC to the AOG. Then when he became Oneness he converted them back to the Oneness. He lived a life of revelation, I wish he lived in these times where everyone has to get themselves known by writing books.

In my fathers life, his mother planted the seed, his father planted the motivation, his jewish friend planted the question, his AOG friend planted the example and the AOG pastor planted the passion.

My grandfather his dad was a WW1 hero and served on the USS Nathianel Fanning, where each man received a citation for valor from then President Wilson. 2 men received the Navy Cross, for the sinking of a German U-boat. On that day in Nov, 17th, 1917. When they dropped the depth charge, that hit the Uboat the blast also knocked out the engines of the Fanning. They did not have full power to escape if needed. They waited seconds and the blast brought the U-boat to the surface. The men aboard the Fanning came within seconds of being defeated in battle. Which would have made it impossible for my father and then the next generation to have existed.

Remember God had us in his mind before our time...


God Bless

Last edited by Neck; 08-12-2009 at 11:10 PM.
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  #30  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:07 PM
Sinatra Sinatra is offline
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Thank you for sharing some of your family's history. I had read a little of it before, but never this much. What a beautiful story! It never ceases to amaze me how we can look back and find the hand of God at work in our lives. (such as the case of your G-Father on the Fanning)

God Bless You,
Sinatra
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