How would you define AFF?

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by Pro31:28

I said the UPC because that was my affiliation, and all of the people who I know personally (meaning in person, not those I have met through AFF) were through the UPC. I should have said Oneness.

I did not say that the UPC IS legalistic (although that could be argued depending on the church), I said it leaned that way, which I think it does, at least in my experience.

What is your experience? This sounds like another, let's blast UPCI post.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It isn't how many that showed up that I was taking issue with it was requiring young people to dress up for an event that is about them because they are too afraid of the label that comes with some freedom. You tell a kid what to do everyday of his life and then when he turns 18 just turn him out. They have got to learn to give the kids the room to figure some things out for themselves while they are still at "home." They will never learn to be leaders as long as they are dictated to on every aspect of their life...they will only learn to be little dictators.

I was "wild as a March hare" after turning 18 and leaving a structured Catholic environment. How God was able to reach me later is that I did learn something about the love of Jesus Christ.

My daughter did the same thing, leaving a structured UPC environment. She is now back in and has stronger convictions than she has ever had. She said it's not a party line, but something God has done in her heart.

I say we need to leave it alone and let everyone work it out for themselves. I'm not going to rail on anyone. I'm not perfect and that makes me not have the right.

You can't look in my daughter's face and tell her she is wrong. It's not your right. It's between her and God. We will stand before God someday and be judged by our words toward interfering in the personal direction of any life.

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I was "wild as a March hare" after turning 18 and leaving a structured Catholic environment. How God was able to reach me later is that I did learn something about the love of Jesus Christ.

My daughter did the same thing, leaving a structured UPC environment. She is now back in and has stronger convictions than she has ever had. She said it's not a party line, but something God has done in her heart.

I say we need to leave it alone and let everyone work it out for themselves. I'm not going to rail on anyone. I'm not perfect and that makes me not have the right.

You can't look in my daughter's face and tell her she is wrong. It's not your right. It's between her and God. We will stand before God someday and be judged by our words toward interfering in the personal direction of any life.

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing. It sounds like your making my point in the beginning. Is that what we really want is for our children to go wild then come back to the structured life of the UPCI? I would prefer to give my child some space to make some mistakes and learn from them now, while I can take the reins if necessary, rather than throwing him to the world and having him return to God with a broken marriage and kids that he sees every other weekend.

[Pro31:28]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

What is your experience? This sounds like another, let's blast UPCI post.

Just because i do not currently attend a UPC church, does not mean that I still do not retain close ties. I have many friends and family that are current members of both UPCI and WPF. I do not feel it is necessary to share my experience again, as I have before.

I retain no ill will toward the UPC church, that is in fact, where I met my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. But I know that in my time there, especially toward the end, (in the area that I was in) there was a great focus on hemlines and lipgloss, when there should have been a greater focus on Christ.

Dictionary.com defines legalism as:
le⋅gal⋅ism  [lee-guh-liz-uhm]
–noun
1. strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, esp. to the letter rather than the spirit.
2. Theology.
a. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
b. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.


I guess you could say that I was part of the collateral damage created by the '92 issues.

If you preach Christ and Him crucified, there is no need to tell people how to dress.

I was not intending to blast the UPC, and because I knew that some would perceive it that way, I almost didn't post it. I meant no offense.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.

This is true. It's also an oversimplification. Legalism places a lot of guilt on people, and can make you feel like you're not spiritual enough to hear from God. Plus a lot of other things that I don't have time to go into right now.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing. It sounds like your making my point in the beginning. Is that what we really want is for our children to go wild then come back to the structured life of the UPCI? I would prefer to give my child some space to make some mistakes and learn from them now, while I can take the reins if necessary, rather than throwing him to the world and having him return to God with a broken marriage and kids that he sees every other weekend.

My point is that children, if they want to, are going to go wild regardless of what organization or home structure they were brought up in.

It's not just the Bible College kids going wild. I've partied at UT and Tx State University in San Marcos, Texas with lots of wild kids from every religious group - Baptist, Catholic, etc. We were all honor students from good, decent homes.

I could tell a whole lot of stories from my last 24 years in the UPC. What I learned is that God sees my tears, hears my prayers and tells me which way to walk. If He tells me to stay where I am and that He's building a church, then I take offense to anyone railing against the UPC when none of us are God and we do not see the big picture.

Anyway, this type of thread is definitely not my strong suit. I've been through too much to agree that we should rail against the ways of any people who have chosen to walk the way they do. I believe it's meddling, interfering and just plain wrong. We can pull the Berean card all day long, it doesn't make it right.

Oh, so how to I define AFF? The only point I will address - we are allowed to speak our minds. lol

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This is true. It's also an oversimplification. Legalism places a lot of guilt on people, and can make you feel like you're not spiritual enough to hear from God. Plus a lot of other things that I don't have time to go into right now.

I guess from my perspective - as a new convert - the first time I heard the pastor teach about "touch not thine anointed" - God put the thought in my mind to find out what that actually meant.

When we were called "peculiar" on the lines of Webster - strange. He impressed on me to look up the word "peculiar" in the Greek.

My first lesson as a Christian - study for yourself, be patient, I will take care of you, I will lead you, I will talk to you, I will make a way of escape in every situation. I would love to tell the glorious ways God did that in my life - over and over and over again. Every hard situation, every slight of man - God came to me. Sometimes He moved me but there were more times He moved the man. God is very awesome, very sensitive and very protective.

So, again, from my perspective, there are no excuses for whining about anything. Find out where He wants you to stand and STAND.

Came back to add, AQP, these are my thoughts and are not directed at you.

[*AQuietPlace*]

I'm off to church now, but when I get back I'll add my point of view.

I will say, now, that you are right, but it has taken me many years to get to that place.

[crakjak]

Hoovie!!!

Of course the UPC is legalistic, just because you accept the mode of dress, etc.(which is very liberal from a Amish point of view) doesn't make it any less legalistic.

It is legalistic because there are consequences for not following the prescribed doctrines and standards. Even shunning in many places.

The UPC has changed a great deal toward a more graceful attitude, but it still struggles with its roots.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I was "wild as a March hare" after turning 18 and leaving a structured Catholic environment. How God was able to reach me later is that I did learn something about the love of Jesus Christ.

My daughter did the same thing, leaving a structured UPC environment. She is now back in and has stronger convictions than she has ever had. She said it's not a party line, but something God has done in her heart.

I say we need to leave it alone and let everyone work it out for themselves. I'm not going to rail on anyone. I'm not perfect and that makes me not have the right.

You can't look in my daughter's face and tell her she is wrong. It's not your right. It's between her and God. We will stand before God someday and be judged by our words toward interfering in the personal direction of any life.

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.

Completely AGREE!!!!!!

And in my experience, we were taught how to look and the rules to follow to make it to heaven. I wasn't given tools to live a holy life by learning for myself what God wanted from me personally. I believe this is the fall of all organizations.