Local Church BODY

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Don't you guys worry pastors are typed as shepherds and they lead SHEEP they are not herders. SHEEP follow others animals are driven and some can't not hardly be driven at all. So if you don't follow anyone then it depicts what you are not.

Brother Epley,

This is so true.

It is in a sheep's nature to follow.

One who will not follow needs a nature change, and we know the One Who is able to do that.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

The Church is the body of Christ.

As far as I know, you, Michelle, still believe that the New Birth (John 3:5, Acts 2:38) is the entrance into the Body of Christ.

If you do, then I would say that you believe other things the Scripture says about the Body of Christ.

As for the qualification of ministers, when a man's ministry is acknowledged and recognized by the Body, it does give some basis for credibility.

Are there mistakes? Of course, because humanity is involved.

But there is a cumulative wisdom in Christ's Body, and over time, the charlatans and fakes generally get found out and expelled. There is a process that takes place.

The Church is the Body of Christ in the earth.

If a person rejects the ministry and wisdom and fellowship of Christ's Body, in effect they are rejecting Him, because He has so ordered and set in motion this means for the propagation of the Gospel and the perfecting of the saints.

Michelle, I just have a question for you, not intended to be insulting or to pry...but how has your prayer life been lately?

This I ask out of sincere concern.

How has your prayer life been lately?

Bro. C ~

I understand why you are concerned, I really do. To most of the people here, this most likely seems like this is out of the blue, and I can almost here you all saying out loud to your computer screens “What in the world has come over Michelle???”

I have posted little bits and pieces here and there, but there are lots of posts, and I know there is no way for one person to see all of them. So please read this post first :

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=141

The truth is that right now, I am like a new convert, or actually even before that, I am like someone who is just trying to learn about Jesus, just trying to figure out if he is someone worth knowing. Right now, though I banter back and forth about these issues, looking outside of the box, and ruffling feathers, to be honest, the answers to these questions are not a prime concern to me right now.

Does it matter if I obey a Pastor, if I don’t love Jesus? Does it matter how good my church attendance is, if I don’t know who Jesus is anymore? I spent so many years following the “rules” of a God that I didn’t trust and didn’t even like for that matter. And it wasn’t until that episode on New Year’s day that I really understood that I was concentrating on all the wrong things. It’s like I was telling our good home-schooling friend (who is also concerned about me) last night, I am trying to rebuild my foundation, until that happens, I don’t need to be picking out shutters, you know?

Now beyond that, and getting to your actual question; it has only been in the past few weeks that I have once again began to feel some sort of hope. That maybe Jesus is a good God, that maybe he can be trusted, that maybe he even loves me regardless of all my flaws and my complete inability to perfectly follow all the “rules”, even with my doubts and fears and even my stubbornness. I have only begun to understand that maybe he can actually be a friend, not a vengeful dictator who is just waiting for me to “show my true colors” so that he can smite me.

So in all actuality, for the first time in years, my prayer life has been more about intimacy and relationship with God, and less about “Please Jesus, I’ve tried to be perfect, I have tried to ignore the doubts, I really don’t want to go to hell, please make me different, please make me like them, please don’t punish me, I’m doing the best I can….”

And in this past week, I have had 2 awesome encounters, in my prayer time, both involving major revelations about love. Loving God and loving others. This is amazing when you realize that I spent the past how many years not loving a God I believed could never love me.

I guess the bottom line is, that I know there are things I will have to address eventually. Someday it will come to a point, where I fully love God, and I am fully convinced of his love for me, and I will need to address other things. But right now, I am not ready, I am too fragile. Like someone posted on the other thread….its like being born again, again. And for the first time, I feel happy, no not happy, full of joy, full of peace. I haven’t felt this way since the moment I got the Holy Ghost.

As a funny side note, I dreamed of the forum last night, and I actually woke up praying for one of the posters, it was actually tbpew, which is ironic, because I have never really had any interaction with that poster, and know little of them, and because I was in that realm of half asleep, half awake, I don’t even remember what I was praying about.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Good. I would say more but for right now I will hold my peace. Really I have said enough. Any preacher has dealt with the Tribe of Roamers throughout their ministry and they are so predictable and the end for them and their families are so sad, but a preacher can't help anyone who does not want any help.

Bro. Epley, with all that I like to razz you, and occasionally tweak your nose and even though we disagree on a great range of subjects; I know that you are a good guy, and that you really love people, and that you are sincerely concerned for those who you think are on the wrong path. And I love you as my brother in Christ (even if you don't recognize my sisterhood)

[Coonskinner]

Resistance to the idea of following is really just a manifestation of the old nature, and is not nearly as complex or unique a situation as the adversary likes to make people think.

He will work through the ego, and make you believe that you are somehow unique, not like other people, and destined for some different thing than all the boring, dumb "followers."

He will convince you that you can't fit the "mold" because you are too bright, too inquisitive, too keen and perceptive.

He will make you believe that following would be like "selling out" and not being true to yourself.

This is not unique--it's an old, old story that a lot of people have fallen for.

I have seen it over and again.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Bro. Epley, with all that I like to razz you, and occasionally tweak your nose and even though we disagree on a great range of subjects; I know that you are a good guy, and that you really love people, and that you are sincerely concerned for those who you think are on the wrong path. And I love you as my brother in Christ (even if you don't recognize my sisterhood)

I never said I do not recognize your sisterhood if you remember I suggested a church to you and took time to speak to the pastor about you. I am concerned about your eternity. I have read the Book and the future is not bright for those who reject Biblical leadership and the church to go on explorations not endorsed by the Bible. After seeing folks many whom I loved turn out shipwrecked their families destroyed and many getting involved in some way out false doctrine down the road the signs are all the same. No pastor wants to pastor a person whose brain is in neutral and is blind. That is a wrong perception but pastors do get alarmed when those under their care become elusive and unpredictable. There is nothing as frustrating as trying to save someone from self-destruction who does not have a clue that is the trail they are taking. Paul speaks of those 'who oppose themselves' saving those folks is nearly impossible and very heatbreaking to a pastor who loves those in his charge. We have had some strong bantering in the preceeding posts but now I am opening my heart. It is like being a doctor that cares for a patient and the tests come back bad and the patient is determine not to take the treatment. But honestly the patient is NOT smarter than the doctor on this matter. This is the doctor's life. All you folks go ahead a butcher my openess but I am afraid for you I do NOT hate or dispise you I hate what is going to destroy you and your families.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I never said I do not recognize your sisterhood if you remember I suggested a church to you and took time to speak to the pastor about you. I am concerned about your eternity. I have read the Book and the future is not bright for those who reject Biblical leadership and the church to go on explorations not endorsed by the Bible. After seeing folks many whom I loved turn out shipwrecked their families destroyed and many getting involved in some way out false doctrine down the road the signs are all the same. No pastor wants to pastor a person whose brain is in neutral and is blind. That is a wrong perception but pastors do get alarmed when those under their care become elusive and unpredictable. There is nothing as frustrating as trying to save someone from self-destruction who does not have a clue that is the trail they are taking. Paul speaks of those 'who oppose themselves' saving those folks is nearly impossible and very heatbreaking to a pastor who loves those in his charge. We have had some strong bantering in the preceeding posts but now I am opening my heart. It is like being a doctor that cares for a patient and the tests come back bad and the patient is determine not to take the treatment. But honestly the patient is NOT smarter than the doctor on this matter. This is the doctor's life. All you folks go ahead a butcher my openess but I am afraid for you I do NOT hate or dispise you I hate what is going to destroy you and your families.

Brother Epley has expressed this very well.

What you may or may not realize or believe, Michelle, is that we have seen lots of folks say the exact same things you are saying, and we have seen where that road leads.

It is heartbreaking to a man who cares about people to see some who insist on re-inventing the wheel, not realizing that they aren't following some new path of divine revelation, but rather an old tried and true deception.

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by Michlow

The truth is that right now, I am like a new convert, or actually even before that, I am like someone who is just trying to learn about Jesus, just trying to figure out if he is someone worth knowing. Right now, though I banter back and forth about these issues, looking outside of the box, and ruffling feathers, to be honest, the answers to these questions are not a prime concern to me right now.

I've prayed for you recently, Michelle, and that's not just a cursory remark.

Bare with me:

I remember when I returned to God after 20+ years of being backslidden (not a comment directed at you) that I searched for 2 years for "Him". I read the very book you're reading and many others. I began praying more and more. I was so hungry to know God, because He was the only One who had never failed me, including and especially ME!

I remember asking my brother a bunch of questions about these books I was reading. I asked him if he had ever read them. He was also backslidden at the time. He finally stopped me one day and said, "Brother, have you thought about reading the Bible?" I was like......... !! LOL! I'm not saying you don't read the Bible. I'm just letting you know that I've been sorta where you are right now.

I can't describe the feeling I have gotten from Bros. Epley and CS's posts. I "see" their heart and passion in their posts. I know you do, too. The man of God I was led to (after being under another denominational minister for 2 years) is much like these men. He is honest and caring, and not overbearing. He wants to see me in heaven!

Anyway, if you are truly searching to know Him better, you will find Him. I was and did. I sense that you are and will!

[mizpeh]

Sis,

It sounds like you are or were going through a trial of faith that has shaken the ground in which you thought you were secure and grounded.

Everytime I have gone through a hard trial, a verse or verses of scripture have kept me from giving up or going astray.

Have you in the past ever had any experiences with God that you knew for sure were God? Encourage yourself with those. Encourage yourself in the Lord with scripture. And pray. God does not tell us to seek his face in vain. He will be found of you.

Watch what thoughts enter your mind. The devil will fill you, if you let him, with all kinds of lies about God....God doesn't love you, etc.

God will complete the good work He started in you if you do not give up or give in to our enemy.

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Resistance to the idea of following is really just a manifestation of the old nature, and is not nearly as complex or unique a situation as the adversary likes to make people think.

He will work through the ego, and make you believe that you are somehow unique, not like other people, and destined for some different thing than all the boring, dumb "followers."

He will convince you that you can't fit the "mold" because you are too bright, too inquisitive, too keen and perceptive.

He will make you believe that following would be like "selling out" and not being true to yourself.

This is not unique--it's an old, old story that a lot of people have fallen for.

I have seen it over and again.

I have one question though...

Which is a greater sign of "ego"?

Person A: Who believes (without having any proof) that the supreme being of the entire universe has commissioned them specifically to be his intermediary that everyone else needs to submit to...

Or

Person B: One who is not willing to accept person A's perceived position without any proof

You guys talk about how serious this all is and that we are talking about eternity... that means that the very first thing you should do is authenticate the authority of those you are going to submit to, prior to submitting to them.

If some guy tried to pull you over and write you a ticket and he doesn't have any way of proving that he represents the local government, do you mail your check to the address on the ticket, or do you just ignore it?

I don't know how many more analogies I will have to come up with to explain my position... it seems clear that everyone is making a leap in logic just because everyone else has made the leap in logic and it is easier than starting from the beginning and validating the authority that people claim to have.

Back to the Noah example (that someone else used recently)... it's one thing for Noah to preach for 100 years out of 950 that a flood is coming...

It is another thing if there were 500 Noah's all on the same street, each building an ark, each in the same 100 year period, and each claiming something slightly different, but unique enough that their way is the only way and all of the other 499 Noah's are wrong... that is the way society is today. Everyone is the messenger of God, and all the others are just fakers. lol.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Brother Epley has expressed this very well.

What you may or may not realize or believe, Michelle, is that we have seen lots of folks say the exact same things you are saying, and we have seen where that road leads.

It is heartbreaking to a man who cares about people to see some who insist on re-inventing the wheel, not realizing that they aren't following some new path of divine revelation, but rather an old tried and true deception.

Sigh...this saddens me Bro. C.

I am not trying for a new revelation or trying to "reinvent the wheel", I simply want to get to know Jesus, and try to figure out why I should even want to follow him.

I thought that was a noble cause. You all make sound like if I really get to know Jesus, without focusing on the rules, that i will be lost. That saddens me. There seems to be no room in the apostolic church for questions or doubts, or even Jesus.

I could go back today, this moment. Stick myself back in the little box, start following all the rules, go to church 3 times a week, and be the perfect little apostolic saint, but without Jesus what in the world does that matter???