Emergents Thank WeDeclare Crowd

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

so who are the detroit guys, i keep hearing about them in a round about way, but no one puts a name to whos leading the mod-lib push that keeps getting hinted to on here.

If we tell ya, we'd have to kill ya!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I would imagine that in many cases these men weighed the situation in the balance. What was more important: organizational hobglob or long held moral beliefs? To these men, well...many of them at least, it likely became a very simple issue. "What fellowship does light have with darkness?". So continue to be silent as more and more fallacy and unorthodoxy invades the UPC (and every other organization) over not only holiness, standards and modesty but over principle doctrines like salvation and the Godhead became something they could no longer do with a clear conscience.

Are they a bit too stringent on standards? I can agree with that. However, when the shift is obviously drastically to the "liberated" left then a hard push to the right is needed in order to counter it.

If I have to choose between the left who tend to want "anything goes" and whose idea of modesty is seriously lacking IMO and the hardline right who go WAY overboard with rules and regulations....I will still side with the Right because at least they are trying to maintain a seperation and not throw our heritage in the trash.

Such revisionism is NOT the hallmark of a "conservation" or "the Right." The radicals represented by the "IDoDeclare.ORG" crowd are responsible for CHANGING much of the UPC's stand on many issues. "Conservatives" and "the Right" are hesitant to change the long held moral beliefs of the organization. The Radicals you propose to support have:

1) Removed the writings of John Dearing (one of the founders of the PCI along with Howard Goss) from the required reading for all UPC ministers. They threw Brother Dearing out like he was trash. How is that "trying to maintain a seperation and not throw our heritage in the trash?"

2) Changed the Fundamental Doctrine.

3) Made repeated changes and additions to the Articles of Faith.

4) Assaulted the General Conference Platform just about every year for the last 30 years with repeated Resolutions demanding even more changes.

Since they are responsible for so much Change and so many NEW ideas and teachings, how can you call them "the Right?" They are the religious equivalent of Obama's mentors Bill Ayers and Saul Alinsky. These are Radicals bent upon mandating sweeping changes, not preserving "old paths" and long held truths. Their preaching is equivalent to the hateful rants of Jeremiah Wright.

Remember... "I could smell the "liberals" when I flew over Idaho..."? Or how about (from 1992) "Every now and then every movement needs to have a bowel movement...!"

I can point out the names of the guys at "IDoDeclare.ORG!" who snickered loudly at that last one. Why don't you guys post that on a web site?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Having genuine friends in both camps and being a longtime Apostolic minister and professional interpreter of the law (attorney) gives me an uncommon perspective on WeDeclare.

Although I am somewhat suspect of the motives of the original post, and personally agree with Rodney Shaw there are no emergents within the UPCI, I too agree there is much good in this declaration. Unfortunately there is also one fatal flaw.

First the good. The first three items are foundational, if you don’t believe and follow them you have no business being in an organization such as the UPCI. And the conclusion that Apostolic Distinctives should be left in the hands of the local ministry is wonderful. This is one of the unheralded but main attractions many men had for the WPF, Decentralization of the organization and empowering the local pastor.

They also have joined the 21st century by no longer fighting technology. The former Luddite position has done irreparable harm to the movement’s credibility in times past. This is a giant leap forward toward a moderate and reasonable position and as has pointed out should be applauded.

But, as mentioned the document does have a fatal flaw making in internally inconsistent.

The stated position in items four and five take one mitzvah of the 613 in the Old Testament and one hermetically illegitimate understanding of a single passage in a pastoral epistle and elevate them to a position far above what they were ever intended to be.

Nevertheless, regardless of how they are interpreted there can only be two approaches, they are either Apostolic Distinctives or they are Salvific and therefore in and of themselves necessary to avoid hell.

I believe the first view to the majority view within the UPCI and as such they should honor their own declaration and leave it to the auspices of the local pastor. But for the few who actually believe them to be salvific you do violence to your own Item three for they are nowhere mentioned in either John 3 or Acts 2.

It is the epitome of salvation by works. To place women wearing pants or trimming split ends on par with repentance, being buried in His Holy Name, and filled with His Holy Spirit is blasphemy pure and simple. It cheapens the blood of Calvary, the suffering of the Cross, violates the very core understanding of Grace.

This is its fatal flaw. If you believe in salvation by works you don’t have New Testament salvation. If you believe them to be Apostolic Distinctives then leave their enforcement to the local pastor.

Excellent, James!!!!