Post UPCI Gen Supt. Election Questions

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by oletime

dead on cowboy ! dont tell me you or anybody else is any different.i sure wouldnt be good with it if an ayatollah somewhere said it.by thier fruits....

In other words, you're fine with "God told me" as long as it lines up to your world and religious view! It's bogus if the "word" contradicts what you believe. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm OK!

Me? I question "God told me" even when I totally agree with the decision that the person is making! I'm not saying that PM made the wrong decision!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

How come Jerry Jones didn't feel the same check in his spirit? Did God want for there to be a runoff election? Was JJ not sensitive enough to the voice of God?

If another leader like Bro. Haney was still in the running, would God have changed PM's mind? If it looked like a preacher who was tolerant of the extremes looked like he would win, would PM have let his name run?

Lot's of questions! Don't you LOVE religious politics?

Dunno. I don't think the Almighty is too concerned with weeding out and sorting the various candidates for a position within the UPC. But if we lack wisdom on a matter we can confidently ask and receive some illumination.

Maybe JJ didn't think to ask, or maybe he's one who tells God how it's going to be when he prays (I doubt that though, because I've prayed with him before). Or maybe the circumstances in JJ's life are a bit different than those in PM's life?

Maybe "God" was telling PM to dodge a bullet, and didn't tell JJ because that bullet wasn't aimed at him?

Human lives are almost infinitely complex. All I can do is apply some principles of complexity and then I'll see, or at least be able to imagine, all of the ways the two men's lives and callings are different.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Dunno. I don't think the Almighty is too concerned with weeding out and sorting the various candidates for a position within the UPC. But if we lack wisdom on a matter we can confidently ask and receive some illumination.

Maybe JJ didn't think to ask, or maybe he's one who tells God how it's going to be when he prays (I doubt that though, because I've prayed with him before). Or maybe the circumstances in JJ's life are a bit different than those in PM's life?

Maybe "God" was telling PM to dodge a bullet, and didn't tell JJ because that bullet wasn't aimed at him?

Human lives are almost infinitely complex. All I can do is apply some principles of complexity and then I'll see, or at least be able to imagine, all of the ways the two men's lives and callings are different.

Great answer!

[Johnny Celey]

So my night was going great, had a wonderful prayer time, but then I discovered this thread and "DKB: the Leader." I read it all. I had never been to this forum before.

I am depressed.

I had no idea that so much gossip would go on about fellow believers on a public forum. Please don't get me wrong, I recognize that there are many good, fair minded people here--that came through in many of the posts--but so many are so harsh. I was floored about several things, especially the utter speculation about events or about David Bernard's (or Paul Mooney's) actions, character, and motives, when most/all the posters in these threads do not personally know David Bernard (or Paul Mooney) and are thus in no real position to make such statements. (For what it's worth, I do know David Bernard personally.)

It was surreal to read the analysis of DB and so many other comments that were so off the mark in so many ways. I did have to laugh when someone mentioned something DB supposedly wrote on Twitter during conference--friends, all one would have to do to verify it is go to Twitter and search for DavidKBernard and read his tweets. That's all.

What's so frustrating is that these men cannot defend themselves--and for those who might say that they could come on here and defend themselves, alas there would never be enough time to answer every charge or clarify every misunderstanding. And of course, there will always be some who would still willfully misunderstand or reject every explanation. All too often people project their own motives and character onto someone else and assume that he or she (in this case DB) must have certain motives or must be "politicking" or must be approaching a situation a certain way--because that's how they would approach it or would act. If you have questions, concerns, or doubts about DB, why don't you just call or email him instead of speculating on this forum? I'm not being sarcastic. He's polite and kind. I have found him to be extraordinarily patient as well.

It makes me almost despair about our world when I read what some people think of him when there are few people I respect as much as David Bernard. I have met few other people with such integrity and who so genuinely serve the Lord and His church and who so sincerely desire to fulfill His will--and who do so without SEEKING a position or office. He would not have accepted the GS position if he had not sincerely believed it was the will of God as expressed through the ministers of the UPCI nominating and voting for him. Why leave a church he began and that loves him dearly for a position that, well, makes him more of a target for forums like this?

I expect him to serve honorably as our General Superintendent.

I wish everyone on this board the very best and pray that the blessings of God will be with us all as we seek to serve Him and that a special measure of grace be given to Bro. Bernard as he prepares to serve the UPCI as its General Superintendent.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Johnny Celey

...
He would not have accepted the GS position if he had not sincerely believed it was the will of God as expressed through the ministers of the UPCI nominating and voting for him. Why leave a church he began and that loves him dearly for a position that, well, makes him more of a target for forums like this?
...

Don't let this get you down. There are many more - and much better reasons to despair, Bro. Johnny!

But seriously, that question you ask (above) is really telling in many ways. When some questioned PM's statement about why he didn't allow his name to stand after being nominated - your question was the first thought that crossed my mind.

Also, just as we should extend some extra understanding toward those in leadership and who find themselves under discussion in a public forum, we should also try to extend the same understanding to folks who may not be as skilled or practiced in communication. Huge misunderstandings can be avoided if we don't always assume the worst about every comment that is posted.

A lot of folks (myself included) find ourselves fumbling for words, deleting and rewriting a sentence and then we see that we left out a "not" or a "however" that would have given the post the exact opposite meaning.

These forums are really nothing more than they appear to be. It's a place for friends from distant locales to hook up and chat against a general background of a bunch of other yammering and yakking.

But you are correct and it does serve us all to "play nice" and treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves.

[StillStanding]

Johnny, I don't know you, but you seem like a good man with a good spirit.

I can understand your depression to see your leader's motives challenged.

I also get depressed when I see attacks questioning the motives and views of great men of God such as TFT, Anthony Mangun, Rex Johnson, LH Hardwick, Scott Jones, etc.

I get depressed thinking about how the UPC (which I grew up in) has become more and more exclusive forcing the exit of some of it's best and brightest.

I get depressed thinking about how strong the UPCI might be today if the original mindset of the merger forming the UPC were still in place.

The truth is that we all have our Utopian views of the men of God that we respect and admire. Surely our heroes have no motive other than to listen to and follow the voice of God!

[CC1]

Johnny Celey,

Welcome to posting on the forum. While you and I both may find the question of whether or not Paul Mooney heard from God in withdrawing his name silly it is still something some people find a topic to discuss.

While I have no doubt PM did indeed feel led of God to withdraw his name if that is what he has stated I have to admit the discussion abou it on this thread brought up interesting conversation in general about how Preachers characterize things like that.

Those of us around old time Pentecost for any length of time know that there are good God loving men in the WWPF who will state without reservation that it was God's will to leave the UPC and start a competing org. while some other good men in the UPC will state without reservation that it is God's will for those men to remain loyal and unified with the UPC. Both statements can't be right yet both are good men who would abhor the idea of lying.

The answer lies in how God deals with men. It is through our minds which are not divine and are subject to our emotions. That is why God gave us the Bible as the basis for our faith and doctrine so when our human minds and emotions take us places in the name of God that are to far off base the word of God stands ready as the plumb line by which to judge those things.

[BlestAssurance]

Originally Posted by CC1

Johnny Celey,

Welcome to posting on the forum. While you and I both may find the question of whether or not Paul Mooney heard from God in withdrawing his name silly it is still something some people find a topic to discuss.

While I have no doubt PM did indeed feel led of God to withdraw his name if that is what he has stated I have to admit the discussion abou it on this thread brought up interesting conversation in general about how Preachers characterize things like that.

Those of us around old time Pentecost for any length of time know that there are good God loving men in the WWPF who will state without reservation that it was God's will to leave the UPC and start a competing org. while some other good men in the UPC will state without reservation that it is God's will for those men to remain loyal and unified with the UPC. Both statements can't be right yet both are good men who would abhor the idea of lying.

The answer lies in how God deals with men. It is through our minds which are not divine and are subject to our emotions. That is why God gave us the Bible as the basis for our faith and doctrine so when our human minds and emotions take us places in the name of God that are to far off base the word of God stands ready as the plumb line by which to judge those things.

This is a reasonable post.

I also agree with a good deal of what Pelathais had to say about God perhaps making men aware of cost and consequences, hence the "check."

What bugs me is the misbegotten idea that God no longer speaks.

It's one thing to depart from some standards of separation; it is yet another to begin eroding away foundational things as basic as the fact that God speaks to His people.

I don't believe that kind of divine intervention is an every day event for most people, but to become so jaded and cynical that one questions everything?

God help me never to get to that place.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by BlestAssurance

This is a reasonable post.

I also agree with a good deal of what Pelathais had to say about God perhaps making men aware of cost and consequences, hence the "check."

What bugs me is the misbegotten idea that God no longer speaks.

It's one thing to depart from some standards of separation; it is yet another to begin eroding away foundational things as basic as the fact that God speaks to His people.

I don't believe that kind of divine intervention is an every day event for most people, but to become so jaded and cynical that one questions everything?

God help me never to get to that place.

I have experienced times in my life where I KNEW that God was speaking through a word of prophecy or tongues interpretation, but more where I had some doubts.

When Bro. Haney missed a 3/4 majority vote to be re-elected GS, which group of ministers was following the will of God? Where the 30-40% that voted "no" out of the will of God, or were the 60-70% that voted for him going against the will of God? Don't the preachers pray for God's will before the vote?

I guarantee you that preachers on each side of this issue felt in their spirit to vote as they did.

Does God speak to his people? Yes! But.......I am cynical when it has to do with religious politics! Sorry!

[BlestAssurance]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I have experienced times in my life where I KNEW that God was speaking through a word of prophecy or tongues interpretation, but more where I had some doubts.

When Bro. Haney missed a 3/4 majority vote to be re-elected GS, which group of ministers was following the will of God? Where the 30-40% that voted "no" out of the will of God, or were the 60-70% that voted for him going against the will of God? Don't the preachers pray for God's will before the vote?

I guarantee you that preachers on each side of this issue felt in their spirit to vote as they did.

Does God speak to his people? Yes! But.......I am cynical when it has to do with religious politics! Sorry!

I have my doubts about religious politics, period.