The Unofficial Anti-Christmas Thread

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I can only go by what he's writing.

What's the alternative? What are the implications of his reasonings? What would be the result if the Christian community adhered to his notions? It would produce exactly what I described. Can you, or John himself, show otherwise?

But John's not anti-Christmas...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

The direction I've seen your posts go is very much the same direction I went before I stepped off into the occult. If I'd heeded caution, and kept the accountability I had in place at the time, I'd likely have been a lot better off. I don't think studying things is wrong, or bad, or dangerous in itself. But the more of that you do, the more I believe you need accountability. And I'm not talking about someone who laughs and shakes his head either. I'm talking about someone who will flat out tell you "that's not God" when you get off into something that's not. But you've got to be willing to heed that too. If not..studying these sort of things probably isn't a good idea.

I graciously receive your admonition.

Can you give me an example of something that might lead into the occult?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

But John's not anti-Christmas...

John wrote,

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

and expensive. people spending money they don't have on gifts for people they don't even like the other 364 days of the year.

I am not anti-xmass, but not pro-xmass either. I just ignore it as much as possible. But wouldn't mind at all if it just went away and never returned.

If John had his way... we'd not observe Christmas because it would have gone away never to return.

[John Atkinson]

Originally Posted by Aquila

John wrote,



If John had his way... we'd not observe Christmas because it would have gone away never to return.

At least most of the contemporary manifestations of the so-called christian spirit...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

At least most of the contemporary manifestations of the so-called christian spirit...

That's a very harsh judgment wouldn't you say Bro. John?

I pray you find grace and peace through this terrible time of tolerating our worship, our joy, and festivities.

[John Atkinson]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's a very harsh judgment wouldn't you say Bro. John?

I pray you find grace and peace through this terrible time of tolerating our worship, our joy, and festivities.

I put up with heathen stuff every day? Why would today be any different?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

I put up with heathen stuff every day? Why would today be any different?

My sincerest apologies that we're not as holy as you are Bro. John.

[John Atkinson]

Originally Posted by Aquila

My sincerest apologies that we're not as holy as you are Bro. John.

No apologies required! I don't think I am any holier than you, for the record. I disagree with you on about everything but the fact that there is a God, but that doesn't mean I think I am holier than you.

No need for unpleasant little Jabs Chris.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I graciously receive your admonition.

Can you give me an example of something that might lead into the occult?

Just from this thread, these are the things that cause me some concern.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Did you know that sermons as they are preached in most churches are based on Aristotelian rhetoric popularized by Sophists? The very structure of the sermon as you know it today is pagan.

Steeples are rooted in ancient phallic symbols on pagan temples of worship.

Dressing up for worship was a custom enforced by pagan Romans and was perpetuated by the Trinitarian church once clergy became Roman officials.

These things because the focus is on the pagan aspects and not on Jesus. Sounds sappy...but the fact is there's something solid to the idea that you will lean in the direction of that which you focus on. The knowledge itself is not my concern, it's that it comes up over and over and over in your posts.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The honest truth is… we’re a Anglo-Saxon culture. We have Anglo-Saxon customs. And we’ve taken many of them and used them as vehicles through which to glorify Christ.

This is concerning to me, but more difficult to explain why. I'm not opposed to cultures, have studied them intensively. But, again the focus is not where I feel it should be. I have a cultural heritage, but it is nothing but a shadow next to the heritage I have as a Christian.

Originally Posted by Aquila

An idol is NOTHING. Of course, weaker brothers are easily offended by it, as Paul pointed out.

If an idol were nothing, what is the appeal? Idols are indeed something, and God warns against them over and over and over and over again...for some very good reasons.

I'm aware this was part of a more complete thought, the rest of it I'm leaving alone because it's not the issue at hand.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The principle is established. A holy day is in the eye of the observer.

This is definitely true...from both sides of the coin. Just remember that.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The ancient roots of these practices are European. It's cultural. I know many seem to villainize European peoples and culture... but the truth is... we're the blessed of the Lord. Greatly blessed. I firmly believe that the blessings of Manasseh and Ephraim are upon us. Now go and conquer the culture.

What does God tell the children of Israel about the pagan cultures surrounding them?

Again, allow me to point out that my question has nothing to do with Christmas in this case. It has to do with the defense of cultural practices simply because they are cultural. I have no problems with cultures and love studying them and appreciate very much the intricate systems of religious and social customs that exist. But while I respect a people's right to their culture, I will not defend cultural practices or include them in my life, if they end up being in conflict with God.

Originally Posted by Aquila

We are told specifically...

Romans 14:5-6 (King James Version)
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

...and...

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Why surrender a single day to the secular culture. Take it captive and glorify Christ with it! For example, tear down Hindu temples and build churches on top of the land. It's about spiritual warfare and conquest... not puritanical ascetism, which you're advocating.

I'm having trouble putting words to why this bothers me.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'd also like to note that I think this "anti-Christmas" stuff is an effort to rob us of our European customs and heritage. If a Mexican, Indian, or African integrated cultural observances with their Christianity we find it indearing and support their keeping both their cultural identity and Christian faith. If Europeans keep their cultural customs and integrate them into Christianity the anti-European crowd seeks to make a stink. My heritage is primarily Dutch, Irish, English, and German. I'm proud of my cultural European heritage.

This, honestly, is such a huge red flag for me. The defensive language used, the terseness of the words used, and the defiance present is a concern. The attitude displayed here, granted in an imperfect written medium, is the sort that tends to take on a life of its own.

Originally Posted by Aquila

There are two types of Christians in this world. Those who flee from pagan ways and those who take every thought and purpose captive into obedience to Christ. Christians took the Christmas season and redeemed it, bringing it into obedience to Christ.

Why is fleeing from pagan ways a bad thing? You've painted this picture that those who do so are weaker than you are. You can embrace these things, change them, make them over for the glory of God. You're stronger than others, more able to withstand temptation, more able to effect change on your surroundings. More..more..more.. Powerful?

This is the primary concern that I have. The line that you're walking here is very blurry. The path out is far easier to walk than the path back in.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Aquila

John wrote,



If John had his way... we'd not observe Christmas because it would have gone away never to return.

Personally not liking a holiday doesn't make a person anti-holiday.