Creation and Time by Hugh Ross

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I put my faith in scripture. Others put it in scientists who as a majority do not believe in God. Gee...I wonder why they would slant data and manipulate in order to push theories contrary to the Bible? Hmm...

Odd that you give the same reason to those scientists that I give to YEC scientists for trying to manipulate data in order to prove their theories about the bible.

Be honest now, who do you think has more bias on science? Someone that believes as you do that the bible teaches something so it must be true? Someone that believes if the earth is old that the bible is false? Someone that believes if they don't believe the earth is young that they aren't believing the bible and thus are on their way to hell? Or would an atheist or agnostic, both of which have nothing at stake other than finding out that the earth is that young and thus there must be a God? What do they have to lose by believing there is a God if they came across evidence that said it?

Who do you think is more biased?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Possible I guess. But when/if my brand of Christianity dies I feel sorry for the world left without it. It will have only a shallow pathetic weak version of truth that compromises for every lie and trend. That sounds really lifechanging right?

A trend and lie will never root out the truth. If God be for what you believe then nothing that man does can stand against it. If God is not then it will die.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Brother David

But given the fact that there is no evidence to support the idea that the earth is just 6,000 years old - none! - why should anyone believe this?

1.

2.

3.

(I've started the numbering sequence for anyone to add "evidence" that the earth is just 6,000 years old. Start with number one. Fill in the blanks).

14 Scientific Reasons to Believe in a Young Earth (Answers in Genesis) http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp

1) Galaxies wind themselves up too fast.
2) Too few supernova remnants
3) Comets disentegrate too quickly
4) Not enough mud on the sea floor
5) Not enough sodium in the seas
6) The earth's magnetic field is decaying too fast
7) Many strata are too tightly bent
8) Biological material decays too fast
9) Fossil radioactivity shortens geologic "ages" to a few years
10) Too much helium in minerals
11) Too much carbon-14 in deep geologic strata
12) Not enough Stone Age skeletons
13) Agriculture is too recent
14) Recorded history is too short

Another example I thought of is that red blood cells have been found in dinosaur fossils supposedly millions of years old. http://www.icr.org/article/2032/

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by jfrog

And that my friend is why your version of christianity will die. It is not adaptable. It will not evolve to compensate for any future criticisms. Sure it may live on just a little while longer... but once it's habitat gets shaken up a bit more, it will have nowhere left to live.

Actually I take back what I said. I don't believe your version of Christianity will die. It will adapt. It will eventually concede this point on the age of the earth. But it will quickly become fixated on something else. It will evolve. But it will in essence be the same. It may change colors from age of the earth to something else but it will still be the same animal.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

14 Scientific Reasons to Believe in a Young Earth (Answers in Genesis) http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp

1) Galaxies wind themselves up too fast.
2) Too few supernova remnants
3) Comets disentegrate too quickly
4) Not enough mud on the sea floor
5) Not enough sodium in the seas
6) The earth's magnetic field is decaying too fast
7) Many strata are too tightly bent
8) Biological material decays too fast
9) Fossil radioactivity shortens geologic "ages" to a few years
10) Too much helium in minerals
11) Too much carbon-14 in deep geologic strata
12) Not enough Stone Age skeletons
13) Agriculture is too recent
14) History is too short

Another example I thought of is that red blood cells have been found in dinosaur fossils supposedly millions of years old.

I'm going to enjoy watching this.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Sounds a lot like the Christians of yesteryear insisting the Earth was the absolute center of the entire universe and all things literally revolved around the earth. Oh yes, we now look back and can clearly show in the Bible and in science why they were wrong, I truely believe the same will happen on this subject. In the future, our children will look back at the YEC and be amused at their improper understanding of both the Bible and sciences explainations. But be advised, Christianity will survive in spite of the notions of YEC.

A person can imagine the ultimatum given, "Either you believe that the Earth is the center of the Universe (as much as the concept of the "Universe" was understood then) or you might as well throw the whole Book away!".

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

So in other words...you believe the parts of the bible you believe and think the others are meaningless or just symbollic? Therefore you can conclude that in your opinion Genesis is a bunch of lies, but you like the Jesus part so you're cool with that?

YOu claim YEC is foolishness because of your studies. I and a whole lot of others say the same thing about OEC. One of us has a Bible that says God did it in 6 days. I think I will stick with the Bible.

No, "in other words" I believe that the Bible tells me truth - pretty much like you do if you'd admit it. I use reason and the facts thats I glean from the world around me to make sense of that information and to understand the truths.

When the Gospel of Matthew says that Jesus "saw a man" standing at the receipt if custom... how do you know that this was a "man" and not angel? (See Matthew 9:9).

Daniel also claims to have seen "a man" (Daniel 10:5), but theologically, we have a considerabley different opinion about this "man." Why?

Q: Are you just going to pick and choose what passages of Scripture you interpret one way, and which you interpret another?

A: You already do, Nitehawk. You already do.

And that's not a bad thing either. It's necessary. Why do you take Matthew 5:27, literally but you "spiritualize" Matthew 5:29-30? You're a "cafeteria Christian," Nitehawk. You pick and choose what is literal and what is not.


And when you say "a whole lot of others" you do know that you're talking about a very tiny fraction of the world's population, don't you. Whenever you use the "look at all the YEC believers" argument - that same argument can be used to point out that you're part of a tiny and vocal minority that refuses to accept reality.

Your argument will have more weight with the rest of us when you start taking the whole Bible literally. Begin with Matthew 5:29-30, and the Sermon on the Mount.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by jfrog

lol, you don't get it do you? If you succeed in trying to make the argument be the bible against science then you will destroy Christianity.

It may all be good with you, but somewhere down the line of your kids or grandkids or great grandkids, they are going to look back and see all the foolishness your religion brought. The beginning of the end of Christianity... (if you succeed that is)

Thanks frogger. And that is why I tend to be passionate about this. The YEC are destroying the Christian faith.

Their inept attempts at "science" are embarrassing and foolish and ultimately leads them to lie and deceive. Read this testimony from Glenn Morton. Glenn's a Christian who used to actually work with the Institute for Creation Research. Then his "day job" at Atlantic Richfield exposed him to some troubling evidence for his YEC beliefs.

Glenn asked around and got no where with his questions. So he wrote a paper for an ICR symposium. The rest became history and was widely reported at the time and featured in the magazine Skeptical Inquirer. The "John Morris" who is identified here is the son of ICR's founder Henry Morris and was president of ICR at the time. Henry is the "father of Young Earth Creationism."

Fortunately Glenn faith survived the YEC assault against his faith. And that's just what it was - An attack against a man's faith in the veracity of the Bible by YEC zealots. He went on to become one of the chief contributers to the legenday TALKORIGINS FAQ, along with fellow Christian Mark Isaak.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

14 Scientific Reasons to Believe in a Young Earth (Answers in Genesis) http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp

1) Galaxies wind themselves up too fast.
2) Too few supernova remnants
3) Comets disentegrate too quickly
4) Not enough mud on the sea floor
5) Not enough sodium in the seas
6) The earth's magnetic field is decaying too fast
7) Many strata are too tightly bent
8) Biological material decays too fast
9) Fossil radioactivity shortens geologic "ages" to a few years
10) Too much helium in minerals
11) Too much carbon-14 in deep geologic strata
12) Not enough Stone Age skeletons
13) Agriculture is too recent
14) Recorded history is too short

Another example I thought of is that red blood cells have been found in dinosaur fossils supposedly millions of years old. http://www.icr.org/article/2032/

If you're just going to Google for some questions, why not Google for the answers? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-meritt/age.html covers many of these.

None of these "questions" or challenges are even relatively new. And, the material they cover is all dealt with in a 101 level course in the respective fields.

To make things a bit easier on the reader I'll try to break each one up into a seperate post. Inevitably, there will be other posts and other questions and comments that break up the sequence. Please bear with me... I'll be using a variet of sources - some of them may contain rather... irritable language... from people who have been dealing with YEC nonsense for a very long time. Keep that in mind when you follow the links provided.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Brother David

Thanks frogger. And that is why I tend to be passionate about this. The YEC are destroying the Christian faith.

Their inept attempts at "science" are embarrassing and foolish and ultimately leads them to lie and deceive. Read this testimony from Glenn Morton. Glenn's a Christian who used to actually work with the Institute for Creation Research. Then his "day job" at Atlantic Richfield exposed him to some troubling evidence for his YEC beliefs.

Glenn asked around and got no where with his questions. So he wrote a paper for an ICR symposium. The rest became history and was widely reported at the time and featured in the magazine Skeptical Inquirer. The "John Morris" who is identified here is the son of ICR's founder Henry Morris and was president of ICR at the time. Henry is the "father of Young Earth Creationism."

Fortunately Glenn faith survived the YEC assault against his faith. And that's just what it was - An attack against a man's faith in the veracity of the Bible by YEC zealots. He went on to become one of the chief contributers to the legenday TALKORIGINS FAQ, along with fellow Christian Mark Isaak.

Excellent article.

Now I understand (OK, I understood before... this just drives it in) why Russel Humphreys continues to avoid debating Hugh Ross before an audience of peers, fellow physicists. They simply will NOT let themselves be challenged by the underlying science.