Originally Posted by Praxeas
Being a Pastor is not the same as "exercising authority over".
Are you asserting here that the God-ordained ministry is not in a postion of authority in the church?
I think the evidence for what the greek word here means speaks for itself. If this is untrue please provide the evidence
You have to consider these verses in the context they are in.
Yes, & the context was church order. "These things I write to you so that you may know how to behave yourself in the household of God, which is the church....."
Right, that is what I said. It's regarding a church service and in the context the verse in question is used, the subject is learning in the service
Is this speaking of being a pastor? Then why not say "I do not allow a woman to pastor". But specifically this is a woman not having authority over a man, not over men and women in the church,
You're speculating into the text, which does not state what you state here. It's an argument from silence Prax. You know better than that.
Im pointing out what the verse says and does not say. An argument from silence is says "Since this verse does not say it's true, it must not be true". The verse does not say Pastoring. It says to exercise authority over a man, not over the church. Again that is not an argument from silence. That is stating what the verse actually says or does not say. Im showing what the verse says grammatically.
He begins with "But". That tells you this statement is related to a statement just made.
Which translation are you appealing to? And how does this change the plainess of the text?
What is your counter argument?
1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness.
Who in the world would just read that & conclude from the text alone that God "calls women preachers" in the church?? No one who simply allows the text to speak for itself.
I never asserted from this alone or anything else, that we should conclude God calls women preachers. In addition the subject is woman pastors, not preachers. Preachers proclaim, not exercise authority.
What is significant of this is previously Jewish women were not allowed to go to synagogue and learn, only men were. So Paul is introducing a radical change in cultural thinking
Prax, Paul's writings were to the NT churches, not the inter-testamental Jews. So synagogues have nothing to do w/ this text, & the text never even mentions a synagogue. You're speculating INTO the text [eisegesis].
Paul's writings are to a judaeo Christian church. Many of the members were Jews previously used to visiting synagogues. Proselytes were also familiar with this as would non-proselyte Gentiles. One of the important things to understand before studing the bible is to whom and when it was written. And in Paul's day the church started with JEWS. It spread out to include GENTILES. To even the Gentiles women were the meek and quite member. Even gentile women wore veils back then. Paul is introducing a radical concept to the Jewish Christians and even to the Gentile Christians brought into the Judaeo Christian church...the idea that when it comes to the word of God and learning the women were now equals.
That is not eisegesis. Eisegesis is not the act of pointing out the history and culture of the people of the day when this was written.
Then Paul says "I permit"...this is peculiar because he is speaking as Paul. Notice in this place where Paul distinguishes between what he teaches and what is the Lord's teaching? 1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
"If any man among you thinks himself to be spiritual or a prophet, let him acknowledge that the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." When Paul was speaking on his own accord he explicitly states so, which he does not do here.
That is beside the point, clearly I have proven that Paul made a distinction between something that was his own opinion and something that was the Lord's command.
But what is Paul permitting or not permitting here?
From the NET bible commentary
According to BDAG 150 s.αὐθεντέω this Greek verb means "to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to" (cf. JB "tell a man what to do").
So Paul is saying a woman should never assume a stance of independent authority, give orders or dictate to.
So the taught Word of God is not instructional? Besides, a commentary is not a lexicon, & I can quote several commentaries that strongly disagree. So, back to the text.
I don't know what you mean by "the taught word of God is not instructional" since I did not say it wasn't. This commentary is QUOTING a lexicon. You dismissed this rather than addressed it. The BDAG is a lexicon and one of the better ones
So presumably if that is someone's idea of what a Pastor is then yes she can't be a pastor....if that is really what a pastor is...a dictator
The nouns used here for women and men can be translated wife and husband too.
And not one single reputable translation adopts this rendering. Hmmmm. The terms primarily mean simply man & woman, just as translated.
Were Adam and Eve husband and wife?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
From what I understand in the synagogues only the men went and learned...in quite subjection. Paul broke this cultural norm and allowed women to learn too in quite subjection. In the synagogues the men would then come home to their wives and teach them.
Where is all of this theology stated in the actual text:___________?
As stated before, this is the cultural setting of the time. It helps to understand what Paul means when you know to who and why he is writing
So this doesn't seem to be addressing pastoring unless one believes pastoring is to give orders.
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