Can Women Pastor ?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by rdp

Well, you posted in such a way that I can't respond to each point as I'd like. But it seems that you're basing much of your argument above on the supposed culture of the day. This is an unprovable appeal outside of the text, not inherent to the actual text itself.

I posted the way you did to mine. If you want to make it easier here is how we do it. Wrap quotes around each part you want to respond to, then OUTSIDE the quotes put your response. Then when it's my turn to response I just quote you and then do the same.

Im basing my argument on what the text says. In order to UNDERSTAND what the text is saying it's important to understand to who and what Paul is speaking of and why. Nor is it unprovable. It's a matter of history and scripture. Scriptures tell us it was the MEN that learned the word of God. They were.

And, you've given one definition of arguing from silence.

I gave the only definition of making an argument from silence, which i was not doing.

My point is, you're arguing from an unscriptural posture [i.e., "silence"].

No I argued the scriptures. I exegized them to show what they grammatically say and pointed out the text does NOT say she an not pastor. I pointed out it says she is not to have authority over a MAN, not a church or a congregation or both men and women.

Where does the text itself ONCE refer to "synagogues":___________?

Since I never said this text was about synagogues, this is a pointless.

If it's not in the text, then where did you get this Prax?

As explained before it's helpful to understand and interpret scriptures to understand who and what and why the author is writing. The church he is writing to. The church is a judaeo Christian church. Many of his readers are Jews. The first early Jewish converts still met in synagogues. Acts 26:11. So when they left they were coming from that sort of set up.

I Cor. 11 says that a woman long, unshorn hair is given for ["anti"] a veil. Not sure how this relates to the subject of women preachers in the church [which IS the overriding theme of our discussion, by the way]. And, I still don't see how Bauer's affects the meaning anyway. The application is the same.

I don't understand what you mean here by this verse and how it applies, anyways the meaning is talking about lording it over someone. BDAG shows this is not the simple "authority of a pastor". It's speaking of someone trying to dominate

RWP:The word authenteō is now cleared up by Kretschmer (Glotta, 1912, pp. 289ff.) and by Moulton and Milligan’s Vocabulary. See also Nageli, Der Wortschatz des Apostels Paulus and Deissmann, Light, etc., pp. 88f. Autodikeō was the literary word for playing the master while authenteō was the vernacular term. It comes from auṫhentes, a self-doer, a master, autocrat. It occurs in the papyri (substantive authentēs, master, verb authenteō, to domineer, adjective authentikos, authoritative, "authentic"). Modern Greek has aphentes = Effendi = "Mark."

But, let's take a look at some corroborative evidence: We have clear Scripture forbidding women from positions of authority over men, from teaching/preaching [which are used synonymously in the Bible, much like "God" & "Father"] in the church, absolutely NO examples of the practice ANYWHERE in the entire Bible, the term for elders is ALWAYS in the masculine, NEVER in the feminine, etc. ad nauseum.

You said let's take a look at some cooroborative evidence...but you didn't offer any to look at.

Teaching and preaching are not synoymous. Preaching means to proclaim. Teaching means to educate others on a subject.

The term Elders being in the masculine is indeed an ad nauseum argument. As I said church is feminine. Believers is masculine...does that mean females can't be believers?

Seriously, where's the Scriptural evidence in favor of women preachers in the church:____________?

Where is the evidence against a woman preacher?

Preacher is a harold of divine truth. Doesn't a prophet harold divine truth? There are women prophets in the NT right?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by rdp

Then just do away w/ the masculine "Heis" in Gal. 3:20 eh' Prax? Be consistent. Of course the term "bride" is depicted as feminine!?!?!?

Are you denying what I Tim. 2:11-15 plainly says to the church?

Many words in the bible have gender. Your argument is "Elders is always masculine so that proves only males can be elders"...

Testing that...church is Feminine, so using your logical that proves the church can only be males

[Jeffrey]

I wonder how John Wesley answered these charges. He was notoriously a proponent of women in ministry. Anyone read his writings on this?

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I wonder how John Wesley answered these charges. He was notoriously a proponent of women in ministry. Anyone read his writings on this?

Wonder how Jesus would answer these charges?

“28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28, KJV.

Ah, go ahead and take a shot at me! I can't get this thing to move!

BeenThinkin

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Wonder how Jesus would answer these charges?

“28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28, KJV.

Ah, go ahead and take a shot at me! I can't get this thing to move!

BeenThinkin

Actually, Paul said that, but I get your point.
Okay, I'll play the "other side" for a second. I hate the term "devil's advocate" in this setting

This scripture you cite is not over-riding social roles and order in the NT. The language of this verse speaks directly to the inequalities of the time: slaves, women, gentiles/jews. But in Christ, we are all Sons of God. No one is excluded from being His. Christ doesn't see us in these divisions, but this neither precludes any order in worship. Obviously, Paul wouldn't have written what he did about women in the church setting, and issue instructions for women in worship in 1 Corinthians 11 if all was the same. The problem, I believe, in 1 Cor 11 was that women took Paul's message to the extreme and through out any social order, clinging to an extreme egalitarianism. While Paul's words certainly pushed the envelope, he made very clear what he thought was appropriate authority and orderliness in the church with concern to women, men and children throughout his writings.

Paul also made considerations for his day. While there was no "slave nor free," he still tells the slave to return to his master (Philemon), and tells other slaves in various other verses to be obedient.

In summary, Galatians 3 is an independent thought commenting on the significance of the Christ versus the Law.

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Actually, Paul said that, but I get your point.
Okay, I'll play the "other side" for a second. I hate the term "devil's advocate" in this setting

This scripture you cite is not over-riding social roles and order in the NT. The language of this verse speaks directly to the inequalities of the time: slaves, women, gentiles/jews. But in Christ, we are all Sons of God. No one is excluded from being His. Christ doesn't see us in these divisions, but this neither precludes any order in worship. Obviously, Paul wouldn't have written what he did about women in the church setting, and issue instructions for women in worship in 1 Corinthians 11 if all was the same. The problem, I believe, in 1 Cor 11 was that women took Paul's message to the extreme and through out any social order, clinging to an extreme egalitarianism. While Paul's words certainly pushed the envelope, he made very clear what he thought was appropriate authority and orderliness in the church with concern to women, men and children throughout his writings.

Paul also made considerations for his day. While there was no "slave nor free," he still tells the slave to return to his master (Philemon), and tells other slaves in various other verses to be obedient.

In summary, Galatians 3 is an independent thought commenting on the significance of the Christ versus the Law.

But if you're Apostolic, (and that seems to be the most important designation on this Forum) don't you go along with what the Apostles said? Do we need to add to this scripture and make it read like this.... “28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: (except when it comes to this, and this and this), for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28, KJV.



Yep.....Been Thinkin'

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

But if you're Apostolic, (and that seems to be the most important designation on this Forum) don't you go along with what the Apostles said? Do we need to add to this scripture and make it read like this.... “28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: (except when it comes to this, and this and this), for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28, KJV.



Yep.....Been Thinkin'

It's certainly not "adding to the scripture" to properly interpret and apply it.

We can't just grab one quote out of a whole letter, without understanding the quote in the context of the whole letter -- which had to do with the accessibility of Jesus, and how the Gospel is for everyone.

What I said above is not "adding" it's an attempt to understand, interpret and then hopefully make an application.

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

It's certainly not "adding to the scripture" to properly interpret and apply it.

We can't just grab one quote out of a whole letter, without understanding the quote in the context of the whole letter -- which had to do with the accessibility of Jesus, and how the Gospel is for everyone.

What I said above is not "adding" it's an attempt to understand, interpret and then hopefully make an application.

Thanks Jeffrey for your response. Appreciate your input. I'm not a woman pastor, but I am a male pastor and have enough to do to keep me straightened out. SO..... I'll just work on me!

BeenThinkin

[Trouvere]

A person could be a deacon and not an elder? hum......

[Sister Alvear]

I thank the Lord for a wonderful pastor

I grew up in a little mission church right outside Little rock, Arkansas under the ministry of rev Bryan Taylor…
Almost 52 years ago when I was just a child 8 years old…I had a visitation from the lord…most have heard me tell the story or wrote what I have written over the years.
Today I look back over the many years and my heart is filled with gratitude that God placed me in a church as a small child under the leadership of a very wise pastor…

Today when we walk into many churches we enjoy the love and respect of thousands of people but many years ago I was just a little grils from an dysfunctional home…
My pastor’s reaction to the heavenly visitation of a small child has shaped my life, influenced my ministry and made me what I am today.
I am sure he probably did not know at first if it was just some childish ambition but he never told me that…He always had time to listen to whatever I had to say and treated me as if I was someone very important.

We lived out of town and when I was little my friends and I cleared a place in the woods for services and instead of laughing it off as something childish he gave me songbooks for my outreach! I think I was around 10….The kids that lived around we all came for church…we must have resembled the first church in many ways…we prayed sang hymns, gave our testimonies, some received the holy ghost and we even got out and invited other friends with us…
I even asked different ones to hold us revivals! Lol…(I was born to be a missionary) We prayed for hours…Our pastor encouraged us and never one time made fun of our childish dream…to us kids it was a great outreach to help our pastor!
I remember once when we were praying the Lord showed us there was a snake under some leaves we had raked says before we run and got my mother and she came with a hoe and sure enough there was a big rattlesnake!

Childish dreams and a sincere desire to serve the Lord in the mist of terrible odds won out… Even as an old woman today I cannot bbegin to imagine what my pastor and my mother really thought when I decided to stay on the mission field so young with no promise of support but they never discouraged me.

Today because of his and his wife's wisdom and my mother that was willing to trust her child and rely on the pastor’s advice thousands of souls have come to the Lord. A solid work has been established. Hundreds of preachers and churches that will go on long after I return to dust.

I am a happy lady, have a wonderful husband and beautiful children…however this only happened because of He that called and being in the right church under a very wise man that trusted far beyond human knowledge …thousands of souls say, Thank you, Pastor Bryan Taylor…


It scares me to think of some people that could have been my pastor....and what the outcome could have been...




I personally thank the Lord for such a wise man...he never pushed me out but never told me not to go...he told me he was with me and stood behind me and still does ... and by the way my pastor has never enjoyed forward women in his pulpit but women like Sister Holmes would always be welcome.
__________________