The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by missourimary

It is my understanding that John 20:22 was more prophetic and symbolic than anything

Symbolism: "He breathed on them" is symbolic of the breath of life of original creation, possibly a symbol of re-creation or rebirth.

And prophecy because there were people in the OT moved on by the Holy Ghost and filled with the Holy Ghost, including Saul, but what would come after Jesus' ascension would be something new and different, thus the mighty rushing wind.

Interestingly, there is a belief that Pentecost was the day the law was given to Moses on Sinai. It was a celebratory and joyful occassion, thus people thinking the disciples were drunk, even in the morning, might not have been a totally unreasonable assumption.

I don't know, this doesn't sound simply symbolic to me:

21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Justin

Romans 8:9-11; (NIV) Emphasis are mine.

9 You (Spirit filled church in Rome, they had heard and obeyed Acts 2:38), however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God (Holy Ghost) lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ (Holy Ghost), he does not belong to Christ. (Meaning if you do not have the Holy Ghost, you do not belong to Christ.)

10 But if Christ is in you (Holy Ghost), your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you(God's Spirit, aka, the Holy Ghost), he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. (In other words, if you have the Holy Ghost, you will have immortal life, aka, go to heaven)

Let me clarify; just because someone has the Holy Ghost doesn't guarantee them entrance to heaven, Paul said we must endure to the end.

Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance? Three steppers appear to think that the Holy Ghost comes into the picture when one is baptized with the Spirit. Not so. The Holy Ghost is received into someone's life by faith as they hear the Word, come to faith, are convicted of sin, repent of sin, seek to be water baptized, and then baptized with the power of the Spirit.

It's all the work of the Holy Ghost in one's life from start to finish.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by missourimary

It is my understanding that John 20:22 was more prophetic and symbolic than anything

Symbolism: "He breathed on them" is symbolic of the breath of life of original creation, possibly a symbol of re-creation or rebirth.

And prophecy because there were people in the OT moved on by the Holy Ghost and filled with the Holy Ghost, including Saul, but what would come after Jesus' ascension would be something new and different, thus the mighty rushing wind.

Interestingly, there is a belief that Pentecost was the day the law was given to Moses on Sinai. It was a celebratory and joyful occassion, thus people thinking the disciples were drunk, even in the morning, might not have been a totally unreasonable assumption.

I'd be curious as to what the Greek says. If it was prophetic the "receive" in the verse would be future tense denoting an expectancy of future experience. However, if it's present tense it would require that the Spirit was indeed imparted to them when Jesus breathed upon them.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sam

OK, stop and think about what happened on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2.

There were originally over 500 believers who saw Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:6). 120 of these believers (what's that, about one fourth) were waiting in Jerusalem for an empowering of the Spirit that Jesus referred to as a baptism in the Spirit. As these 120 were gathered together (probably in the Temple) about 9 a.m. the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they began to speak with tongues. This was not their salvation experience. They were already followers of Jesus and had previously ministered in His name/authority. This was an added clothing/enduement of power to do His work.

A crowd gathered and some heard these Spirit filled disciples speaking in tongues and some actually understood what was being said.

Peter stood up and explained that this was a fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy of Joel that God was now pouring out His Spirit upon all. He continued and preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. He concluded with what is recorded in Acts 2:38-40. He told those hearing him:
1. Repent, turn from sin to God, call on Him for mercy, (in other words, get saved)
2. Then follow up that salvation/deliverance experience with baptism/mikveh
3. Then, you also can receive this same enduement or empowering of the Holy Spirit, this promise of the Father, that you have seen demonstrated earlier today.

About 3000 joined themselves to them by believing in Jesus and being baptized.

How many of these 3000 also received the Holy Ghost Baptism? We don't know. It's not recorded. We assume some of them did at that time or later but we don't know that for sure. But, however many of the 3000 who did not receive the Holy Ghost baptism were just as saved as the 380 of the original 500 believers who did not receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.

The agonizing tarrying that we've imposed on people is based on a couple of premises. One is that because 120 people waited/tarried for 10 days to receive the Holy Ghost Baptism that was some kind of a pattern for us today. In the program of God, He had planned to pour out His Spirit universally on Pentecost AD 30. That's when He did it. They could not have received the experience in 3 or 4 or 9 days because God planned it for Pentecost. We've also equated that experience of Pentecost with salvation while it was separate from and subsequent to the salvation of those 120 people. The Holy Ghost wasn't poured out on 120 sinners to save them but was poured out on 120 believers to empower them. After Pentecost if/when people were filled with or baptized in the Spirit, it ordinarily happened by just an outpouring or by hands laid upon them -not after protracted begging, pleading, worshiping, and praising.

Great post Sam!

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance? Three steppers appear to think that the Holy Ghost comes into the picture when one is baptized with the Spirit. Not so. The Holy Ghost is received into someone's life by faith as they hear the Word, come to faith, are convicted of sin, repent of sin, seek to be water baptized, and then baptized with the power of the Spirit.

It's all the work of the Holy Ghost in one's life from start to finish.

How does one know they have the Holy Ghost?

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The folks believed in Jesus, but didn't have the Holy Ghost.

So to answer your question "Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance?"

I would say no due to the context of Acts 19:1-6.

They had been preached "Jesus", but hadn't been baptized nor received the Holy Ghost. The people in Acts 19:1-6 had been taught the "one step salvation", since they "believed", but Paul clarified that they needed to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by Sam

About 3000 joined themselves to them by believing in Jesus and being baptized.

How many of these 3000 also received the Holy Ghost Baptism? We don't know. It's not recorded. We assume some of them did at that time or later but we don't know that for sure. But, however many of the 3000 who did not receive the Holy Ghost baptism were just as saved as the 380 of the original 500 believers who did not receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.

An excellent summary!

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by Justin

How does one know they have the Holy Ghost?

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The folks believed in Jesus, but didn't have the Holy Ghost.

So to answer your question "Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance?"

I would say no due to the context of Acts 19:1-6.

They had been preached "Jesus", but hadn't been baptized nor received the Holy Ghost. The people in Acts 19:1-6 had been taught the "one step salvation", since they "believed", but Paul clarified that they needed to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

I'm going way out on a limb here...

I was very active for years in "mainstream" church, and unlike many in pentecost, loved it, had a fantastic experience, and found God there.

I married a Pentecostal woman, have joined her church, and now have experinced a new a more vibrant faith community (and "recieved the Holy Ghost" and spoken in tongues).

Here's where I step on dangerous ground with some on here..

I can say (for sure) that I had recieved the Holy spirit in my prior church life, in a quiet, demoninational, trinitarian church. We put God in a box so easily, don't we? I knew right then that God was in my life, and was empowering me. I felt and knew his presence intimately.

When I spoke in tongues after coming to this church (and I have many times since then), it did feel a wonderful closeness to God, but other than the vocal expression, it esssentially felt NO DIFFERENT than that which I had already experienced when I had a move of the Holy Spirit in my life. When you get the Holy Spirit YOU KNOW IT! You don't need something to prove it to you, and you dont need to prove it to someone else.

Tongues is a wonderful closeness to God, and a sign of his presense and love, but I think God meets us how and where we are. We're the ones who box him in, and tell each other he can only meet us in a certain place or way. That's kind of the same thing the early Apostles did with their assumtions that the Holy Ghost would only come to Jews, and not Samaritans or Gentiles. Aren't we thankful they were wrong??

Just my own personal experience, so takeit for what it's worth.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Justin

How does one know they have the Holy Ghost?

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The folks believed in Jesus, but didn't have the Holy Ghost.

So to answer your question "Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance?"

I would say no due to the context of Acts 19:1-6.

They had been preached "Jesus", but hadn't been baptized nor received the Holy Ghost. The people in Acts 19:1-6 had been taught the "one step salvation", since they "believed", but Paul clarified that they needed to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

Are we sure that these people had already believed on Jesus? It says 'certain disciples', but doesn't specify 'disciples of Jesus'. It sounds like they could have been disciples of John who had not yet heard of Jesus:

1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[noeticknight]

A superb discussion!

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance? Three steppers appear to think that the Holy Ghost comes into the picture when one is baptized with the Spirit. Not so. The Holy Ghost is received into someone's life by faith as they hear the Word, come to faith, are convicted of sin, repent of sin, seek to be water baptized, and then baptized with the power of the Spirit.

It's all the work of the Holy Ghost in one's life from start to finish.

Good post!

Been Thinkin