What Was The Logos?

[Michael The Disciple]

Jason

I am actually not entirely comfortable with my written statements regarding this. The "form" of God in Phil 2:6 is very difficult to deal with, and my conclusion is not one I would be willing to go to the chopping block for. Furthermore, those comments don't directly address my view of how we should interpret the logos of Jn 1 and 1 John 1, of which I am at least a little more comfortable with doing.

Ok Bro. I am willing to go to the block on this as I have been doing for 29 years now. To me it answered my own final question that was holding me back from Oneness doctrine as a young man.

In addition to what I have written it is necessary to show that even as Jacob the Father of the people of Israel believed this angel "messenger" was YHWH his God so did the entire nation.

When Israel thought of God they thought of the angel of YHWH. The scriptures are written in such a way we can know this. Hundreds of years after Jacob and Moses encountered YHWH in his angelic form Zechariah wrote this by the Holy Spirit:

8: In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. Zech. 12:8

They would be like God, that is like the angel of YHWH. Here its clear that the angel and YHWH are linked together in the inspiration of scripture. I think John 1:1 answers to this. The Logos was with God. Yet simultaneosly WAS GOD.

The two modes of existing doctrine does not just apply to the New Testament. In the Tanakh God existed in one way as omnipresent spirit so vast no creation has ever seen him. That is his essential being.

In another mode of existing he took part of that same spirit and fashioned a visible, angelic form of himself. In this form he could sit upon a throne. He could teach the other hundreds of millions of created angels who he was and what they were. He could walk with man in the garden or come to to see what the children of men were up to when they built a tower to reach Heaven.

This was the eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning. Not a second co equal person but himself revealing himself. His self communication even as you (Jason) said. Kind of like his thoughts were wrapped around by this spirit body.

Another important example is found in Malachi.

1: Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:1-2

We know the first messenger in verse 1 is John the Baptist. Then we see who he was preparing the way for. The Lord they sought. Although the Hebrew is Adon it clearly refers to YHWH himself in this scripture. Just as clearly we see that he himself is called "messenger of the covenant".

The same messenger that met with Moses and gave the old covenant to Israel was going to follow John Baptist to bring in the new covenant. And very dramatically at least to me we read that THE TEMPLE belongs to the messenger!

This confirms that Israel saw this particular messenger/angel as himself being their Elohim or YHWH. The temple of YHWH was HIS TEMPLE.

The messenger was WITH GOD. Yet the messenger WAS GOD.

John the Baptist confirmed this was about Jesus.

28: Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. John 3:28

John was sent to prepare the way for YHWH even the messenger of the covenant.

[Aquila]

I find this interesting. Because if God existed in two forms of existance from eternity (Logos and omnipresent Spirit) we have to admit that it was the Logos that was made flesh. If the Logos (God's visible form) was made flesh, the Logos became known as the Son. If the Logos was God's visible form from eternity, and the Logos became flesh, i.e. became the Son, then the Son technically is the eternal visible form of God. You now have the foundation of the Eternal Son doctrine, or... God the Son.

You'll notice that within 200 years theological debate began to rage in Christendom regarding the identity of Jesus Christ. During this period the Logos doctrine became the foundation of the Eternal Son doctrine. In the early 1900's Pentecost broke out in North America and the the Apostolic doctrine was restored. Could history be repeating itself? Are you, Michael, a 21st Century Justin Martyr?

Just a thought guys.

[TheLegalist]

The angelic Logos of the OT is not new to Oneness.... Though not Bernardism many have taught such. I would agree with both views depending on the scripture. In his argument against Boyd. Ross Drysdale in his book "IF YE KNOW THESE THINGS" does a good job of teaching this and I believe Peterson also.

http://web.archive.org/web/200408231...m/drysd15a.htm

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I find this interesting. Because if God existed in two forms of existance from eternity (Logos and omnipresent Spirit) we have to admit that it was the Logos that was made flesh. If the Logos (God's visible form) was made flesh, the Logos became known as the Son. If the Logos was God's visible form from eternity, and the Logos became flesh, i.e. became the Son, then the Son technically is the eternal visible form of God. You now have the foundation of the Eternal Son doctrine, or... God the Son.

You'll notice that within 200 years theological debate began to rage in Christendom regarding the identity of Jesus Christ. During this period the Logos doctrine became the foundation of the Eternal Son doctrine. In the early 1900's Pentecost broke out in North America and the the Apostolic doctrine was restored. Could history be repeating itself? Are you, Michael, a 21st Century Justin Martyr?

Just a thought guys.

First off I never said and do not believe God existed as two forms. God existed and still does in two ways or "modes of being". There is only one form. The purpose of the form is to be the visible representation of that which is omnipresent.

Obviously we admit it was the Logos who was made flesh. That explains what Jesus meant when he said he was in Heaven and on Earth simultaneosly.

13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

The Word was made flesh and came to rest in Mary's womb for 9 months and was born a human being. That meant all the rest of the omnipresent spirit was still always in the same place it was. This omnipresent and eternal Spirit was now the Father of Jesus Christ.

18: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Matt. 1:18

The eternal Spirit reduced the Word or image down into a seed and placed it in Mary. There was now a Father and Son relationship. The Father was in all Heaven and the Son was limited to Earth.

Yet Jesus told Nicodemus he was still in Heaven. This is possible because in one mode of being he still existed as the omnipresent Spirit. Again two modes of being for YHWH. In the Tanakh he was both Elohim and the angel of Elohim.

In the New Testament he is Elohim and the Son of Elohim.

What Im teaching is not the Eternal Son as a second distinct person from the Father from eternity. If we speak as you say "technically" the Son did not exist until the Word was made flesh.

Even as the Son the Lord Jesus is still the Word (visible expression) but not as the Angel but as a man. Therefore Jesus is both God and man at the same time.

I am by no means the inventor of this doctrine. It is given in scripture and was taught by the more fully enlightened teachers in the Oneness restoration. Somewhere along the way the Logos was demoted to mere "thought" or "plan".

This was a tragic mistake. My hope is to see this truth brought back to the forefront as it shines out in bright revelation to all seekers of truth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

The angelic Logos of the OT is not new to Oneness.... Though not Bernardism many have taught such. I would agree with both views depending on the scripture. In his argument against Boyd. Ross Drysdale in his book "IF YE KNOW THESE THINGS" does a good job of teaching this and I believe Peterson also.

http://web.archive.org/web/200408231...m/drysd15a.htm

John Patterson in his book God In Christ Jesus taught this truth many years ago. John Ecstat taught in in the 60's and 70's. I still have a CD where he teaches it. It is the most awesome teaching I ever heard on any Bible topic period.

I personally came in contact with it in 1980 while attending a Charismatic Church. They had recently come to baptize in Jesus name. The Pastor had somehow gotten hold of John Ecstats teaching tapes and found the truth. I was blessed to first hear it from him.

I also am very high on Ross Drysdales "If Ye Know These Things". This represents IMO the last great Testament of accurate, rightly divided teaching of the Logos. Matter of fact it is the best Oneness book in general I have ever read. Im sure there are others out there but I have only known a few who still hold the angel of the Lord teaching.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

John Patterson in his book God In Christ Jesus taught this truth many years ago. John Ecstat taught in in the 60's and 70's. I still have a CD where he teaches it. It is the most awesome teaching I ever heard on any Bible topic period.

I personally came in contact with it in 1980 while attending a Charismatic Church. They had recently come to baptize in Jesus name. The Pastor had somehow gotten hold of John Ecstats teaching tapes and found the truth. I was blessed to first hear it from him.

I also am very high on Ross Drysdales "If Ye Know These Things". This represents IMO the last great Testament of accurate, rightly divided teaching of the Logos. Matter of fact it is the best Oneness book in general I have ever read. Im sure there are others out there but I have only known a few who still hold the angel of the Lord teaching.

I would agree and I stand corrected... "patterson" not Peterson. Drysdale is excellent.

[Michael The Disciple]

With the background given so far in this thread we can begin to understand that much discussed subject "let us make man in our image".

Let Us Make Man: The Revelation



26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen. 1:26-27

It is not as hard as it seems. The main thing we need to know is this.

Who was God? The Hebrew for God is ELOHIM.

So who was Elohim who said let us make man in our image and likeness?

We will allow the Patriarch Jacob also known as Israel to answer the question for us.

15: And he blessed Joseph, and said, Elohim, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the Elohim which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16: The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen. 48:15-16

In verse 15 the word God is used two times as Jacob blesses his Grandsons. He describes the very God (Elohim) who was Abraham and Issacs God.

In verse 16 he says THE ANGEL is his God. The Angel then is Elohim HIMSELF.

So The Angel Of Elohim is Elohim.

So when Elohim (the Angel) says let us make Man after our likeness he is addressing the Angels.

They themselves are made in his image. The image of Elohim.

Men will have a likeness after that of Angels.

Angels are referred to as MEN various times in scripture.

For example in Daniel:

15: And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16: And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. Dan. 8:15-16

21: Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. Dan. 9:21

Gabriel one of the greatest Angels is called A MAN!

Angels look like MEN. Why? Because we are made in their image.

So after Elohim said let us make man after OUR IMAGE then we read:

27: So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

Elohim alone then makes man proving he was speaking to the Angels OUT OF COURTESY when he says "let us make man".

They dont make man he does. The verse also proves Elohim had an image and likeness. The angels and ourselves are made after it!

So bottom line:

Elohim (Angel of YHWH) is our Creator.

Bottom line. Scripture does tell us who Elohim was. The one who said "Let us make man in our image". It was the angel of YHWH. The form of the eternal, omnipresent spirit.

This solves the problem many have thinking Elohim "God" is more than one.

[Sam]

Moses saw the form of YHWH and he and YHWH spoke face to face (Numbers 33:11). I realize God's face may be His manifested presence or favor but I personally believe this is a reference to the theophany or Angel of YHWH. The Word or Angel was God's visible manifestation throughout the Old Testament just as the Son of God was in the days of His earthly ministry and still is today. I don't see this as an eternal Son but as an eternal Word who became the Son.

Moses had seen God face to face but wanted to see his glory (Num 33:18). God told him that He would make His goodness pass before Moses; He would proclaim the name of YHWH; and Moses could see His "back parts" (Num 33:19-23). I have wondered if maybe Moses somehow saw the back of Jesus, beaten with stripes, mangled, and bloody like Isaiah 53 describes it.

[Sam]

Eld. Ross Drysdale has a book titled "If Ye Know These Things" in which he teaches on what we call "the Godhead." It has a copyright date of 1992 and is available from Amazon. I have a copy, but like many of the hundreds of books in my library, I have not read it through but have skimmed it here and there.

Here are some quotes from it:

The Pre-Incarnate Christ also appeared frequently in the Old Testament times as the Jehovah Angel, or Angel of the Lord in the KJV. The Angel of the Lord was none other than the Word of God. He was the Form or Image of the Invisible God which we have already discussed. The "body of heaven" which Moses and the elders of Israel saw, the Logos or Word of God, was none other than the glorious Angel of Jehovah. In the Old Testament dispensation the invisible God was embodied in the visible form of Christ as the Angel of God. In New Testament times the same God is embodied in the physical form of Christ as the Son of God. Christ has always been God's Temple or body, whether as the Angel of God, or as Son of God. The same Oneness truth prevails throughout recorded (and unrecorded) history, namely that the one divine invisible Spirit has always had his physical Person in whom He dwelt and manifested Himself. This Christ, whether as Angel of God or Son of God has always been the Mediator between the invisible God and his visible creation. An examination of some of the frequent appearances of the Angel of Jehovah will prove very enlightening on this theme. It must always be borne in mind that we are not talking about "two distinct persons in the Godhead." For God the Father is not a Person; he is a divine Omnipresent Spirit (John 4:24). Christ, whether as Angel of God or Son of God, has always been God's Only Person, God's visible Image. God the invisible Spirit has always embodied his essential deity and nature in the visible body of His "Person," the Christ.
pages 176 and 178 from the Drysdale book

THE ANGEL WITH GOD'S NAME

Christ has always been the divine name bearer. This is because wherever the fullness of the divine nature is embodied, there God's throne is also. Christ, the human Son of God, was the Temple of the embodied Father, hence he had the Father's name, and announced the fact in John 5:43:

"I am come in my Father's name and ye receive me not."

The Angel of God, Christ in the Old Testament, was also the visible Temple of the Father:

"Beware of him and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him" (Ex 23:21).

God's name was in Him, because God was in Him! Who else has ever borne the Father's name but Christ? And how else could the divine Father Spirit transfer His name to a person except by incarnation or embodiment? The parallels between the Word of God (the Angel) and the Son of God are drawing ever closer.
page 179 of the Drysdale book

[Sam]

another quote from Eld. Drysdale's book:

THE ANGEL OF THE COVENANT

The most positive identification of the Son of God with the pre-incarnate Angel of the Lord is found in Malachi's prophecy. In the first verse of the third chapter we read:

"Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me."

This was clearly John the Baptist who was the preparing messenger for Christ, the Son of God. Mark 1:2 applies this to John the Baptist. Then the next thing that is to happen is

"The Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly appear in His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant, whom ye delight in" (Mal. 3:1 margin).

The Angel of the Lord, who walked the earth in a "celestial body" would now become the Son of God in a new "flesh blood" human body. The Angel of God had delivered to Israel the Old Covenant (Heb. 12:25-26, Acts 7:53, Gal. 3:19). Now the same Angel or Messenger of the Covenant appears on earth as a man to deliver the New Covenant:

"This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb. 10:16-17). In the Old Testament as the Angel of God, the Christ delivered the Old Covenant to the Old Israel. Now in the New testament, as the Son of God, He delivers the New Covenant to the New Israel.

from page 181 of Eld. Drysdale's book