Sermons in Acts and Hell

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

An everlasting Hell where souls were tormented for millions upon billions upon trillions of years was not known in the Old Testament. Yet the destruction of the soul of the wicked was.

4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

This was the same doctrine taught by Yeshua.

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

This fire judgment is shown us in Malachi.

16: Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17: And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18: Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

1: For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Mal. 1:1

This is the reference Yeshua had in mind:

40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 13:40-42

The "furnace of fire" Yeshua mentioned sounds a lot like Malachi's fiery oven. The "tares" sound a lot like Malachi's "stubble".

First of all Ezekiel 18 is about physical life and death. There is nothing about the death of a actual soul in the context of that chapter. The chapter deals with life and death in this world and the consequences of sin in this world. Even Ezekiel 18:4.

Malachi 3:16-18 that you quoted is much easier explained as God assuring the people that despite the seeming lack of judgment from him on the wicked that he has everything recorded and that when his judgment is come he will spare the righteous from it. While this may foreshadow hell, it doesn't even seem to be a reference to anything of an afterlife. It seems to be speaking of his judgment on earth for that is the judgment that the people were upset that God was witholding.

Where is hell? Or even annihilation? (EDIT: In the Old Testament that is)

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by jfrog

First of all Ezekiel 18 is about physical life and death. There is nothing about the death of a actual soul in the context of that chapter. The chapter deals with life and death in this world and the consequences of sin in this world. Even Ezekiel 18:4.

Malachi 3:16-18 that you quoted is much easier explained as God assuring the people that despite the seeming lack of judgment from him on the wicked that he has everything recorded and that when his judgment is come he will spare the righteous from it. While this may foreshadow hell, it doesn't even seem to be a reference to anything of an afterlife. It seems to be speaking of his judgment on earth for that is the judgment that the people were upset that God was witholding.

Where is hell? Or even annihilation? (EDIT: In the Old Testament that is)

Eternal Damnation is simply not in the Old Testament and was not taught by the Ancients of Israel, except for other cultures such as Ancient Egypt and the teachings of Greek mythology.

This means two thirds of the Bible carries no doctrine on such a place, even amidst the many accounts of God's rebuke and chastisement of mans evils, covering the first 5 thousand years of Mankind.

I find it more than a coincidence that Hell turns up in our Modern day Religion resembling the ideas of Ancient mysticisms and philosophy.

[Sam]

One place I can think of where hell is mentioned in the NT is Acts 8:20 where, in The Message, it says:
Peter said, "To hell with your money! And you along with it. Why, that's unthinkable—trying to buy God's gift!

In my ED it says: "But Peter said to him, "May thy silver go to destruction with thee, Because thou hast thought to buy the gift of God with money.

[MrMasterMind]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Eternal Damnation is simply not in the Old Testament and was not taught by the Ancients of Israel, except for other cultures such as Ancient Egypt and the teachings of Greek mythology.

This means two thirds of the Bible carries no doctrine on such a place, even amidst the many accounts of God's rebuke and chastisement of mans evils, covering the first 5 thousand years of Mankind.

I find it more than a coincidence that Hell turns up in our Modern day Religion resembling the ideas of Ancient mysticisms and philosophy.

On the other hand the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection either, it was fairly new doctrine put forth by the Pharisees. So is that grounds for assuming the NT is wrong about that too?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

On the other hand the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection either, it was fairly new doctrine put forth by the Pharisees. So is that grounds for assuming the NT is wrong about that too?

Then you admit that hell is a new doctrine. So what did the people that the Apostles told about salvation think they were being saved from? If they didn't have a concept of hell and hell wasn't mentioned to them it must have been something else they thought they were being saved from. So what did those people think they were being saved from?

[MrMasterMind]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Then you admit that hell is a new doctrine. So what did the people that the Apostles told about salvation think they were being saved from? If they didn't have a concept of hell and hell wasn't mentioned to them it must have been something else they thought they were being saved from. So what did those people think they were being saved from?

Actually what I said was they did not believe in a resurrection. Something Paul vehemently refuted.

And I would not necessarily characterize something around 2300-2400 years old as a NEW doctrine.

It was established before the time of Christ.

Grace instead of animal sacrifice is pretty new too by your definition. LOL

[Michael The Disciple]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by jfrog

First of all Ezekiel 18 is about physical life and death. There is nothing about the death of a actual soul in the context of that chapter. The chapter deals with life and death in this world and the consequences of sin in this world. Even Ezekiel 18:4.

Then where is the basis in the OT for the teaching of eternal life? I say its found in scriptures like these.



4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5: But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6: And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7: And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8: He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9: Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
10: If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11: And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12: Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13: Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14: Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15: That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16: Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17: That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18: As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19: Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21: But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22: All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23: Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18: 4-24

If this merely spoke of temporal life some should still be living from that generation.

Example:

13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13

Is this just talking about temporal life? If so Apostle Paul and others would still be alive! Its obviously concerning our eternal destiny.

Malachi 3:16-18 that you quoted is much easier explained as God assuring the people that despite the seeming lack of judgment from him on the wicked that he has everything recorded and that when his judgment is come he will spare the righteous from it. While this may foreshadow hell, it doesn't even seem to be a reference to anything of an afterlife. It seems to be speaking of his judgment on earth for that is the judgment that the people were upset that God was witholding.

Where is hell? Or even annihilation?

I believe there are at least 2 places in the Tanakh that are the basis of the doctrine of eternal judgment this being one. If it is not then you must either find other verses that foreshadow it or like other skeptics reject there is eternal judgment.

Remember when John Baptist came preaching he was the first prophet we know of since who? MALACHI!

So when he came preaching THIS:

10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matt. 3:10-12

It does not seem to be a strech that he was referring to what the last prophet before himself had said:

1: For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Mal. 4:1

How else would one explain the wicked being cast into fire and being burned? How else would one explain the metaphor of the stubble/tares?

It seems easy to make a connection between the two prophets preaching.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

Actually what I said was they did not believe in a resurrection. Something Paul vehemently refuted.

And I would not necessarily characterize something around 2300-2400 years old as a NEW doctrine.

It was established before the time of Christ.

Grace instead of animal sacrifice is pretty new too by your definition. LOL

Since your being nitpicky let me rephrase. You asserted that the resurrection of the dead was a new doctrine in Jesus time but was still correct. You used this to imply that even if a doctrine was new in Jesus time that it didn't mean it wasn't true. This was your defense of the hell doctrine.

Since that was your defense of hell doctrine I said that you were assuming hell was a new doctrine in JESUS TIME. Therefore I asked my original question again with some clarification, which was if hell was new to Jesus Time, what did the Jews of that time think when they heard the apostles preach about salvation since nowhere in those sermons that are recorded is hell ever mentioned. What did those people think they were being saved from?

[Shawn]

If you choose to view everything from the same lens as Augustine, every correction, and judgement will equal eternal hellfire.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

An everlasting Hell where souls were tormented for millions upon billions upon trillions of years was not known in the Old Testament. Yet the destruction of the soul of the wicked was.

4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

This was the same doctrine taught by Yeshua.

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

This fire judgment is shown us in Malachi.

16: Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17: And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18: Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

1: For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Mal. 1:1

This is the reference Yeshua had in mind:

40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 13:40-42

The "furnace of fire" Yeshua mentioned sounds a lot like Malachi's fiery oven. The "tares" sound a lot like Malachi's "stubble".

And this I quoted in the other thread CJ started

Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
Dan 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream.
Dan 12:6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?"
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?"
Dan 12:9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."