It's all very confusing. It's like there are differing ideas/levels of "oneness" and differing levels of "trinitarianism". I don't like to use either label, but I do NOT believe that there are three distinct personalities that have differing thought patterns and emotions. That, I think, is a truly tri-theistic idea. However, I do not believe that Jesus is the Father, so I guess that makes me non-oneness in some people's minds.
All I know is that I love Jesus and when I get to heaven, if there happens to be 3, I'm not going to be upset and ask to go to the other place!!!
Ever hear different "oneness professionals" get into a debate? You will think the sky is purple and the oceans are pink and that one plus one equals 5 within no time. And then to think that SOME of these people put salvational status on proper oneness understanding is even more incredible.
In which ways and to what degree does it become an issue of salvation?
This is what I was going to ask, because even in Oneness circles, there are so many varying explanations of the "godhead". Which one do I have to believe to be saved?
if there is not much difference in the two views how can you be a Trinitarian, not Oneness?
As far as I understand... a "person of the Trinity" and a "manifestation of God" is very similar in terminology, except Trinitarians believe that each "person" or "manifestation" of God is a different "being", and these three "beings" are the make up of the Godhead.
No Oneness is not a cult as pertaining to the Godhead. It teaches there is only one who is YHWH and that Jesus is YHWH. This is the Bible position. If Trins held this they would not be calling Oneness a cult.
Oddly enough my view of the godhead is the one thing that didn't change way back in 1987 when I went Pentecostal from the quasi-catholic, quasi-agnostic state.
I wasn't quite sure I believed in any god at all, but if I was going to, Jesus was leading the alternatives by a mile.
I am not that sure that many folks in Christianity today outside of catholic theologians believe the Athanasian creed as it is written as that is tritheistic in the extreme, yet the word "trinity" is a 1700 year old buzzword that folks still use because they don't know another. So in some cases, in many even, it does in fact boil down to semantics.
Bottom line is that Jesus is the express image of God, he was, and is, God manifested in the flesh. He is the only God we can see, visualize and grab ahold of. The scriptures are clear that Jesus is the ONLY vehicle through which salvation is obtainable.
When I pray, I have yet to ask the Father for a single thing... I talk to the one to whom all power is given. When I have a need, I have yet to call on the Holy Ghost, though I know that the Holy Ghost is in me, which is the Spirit of Christ, I talk to Jesus.
I do not see three separate co-equal beings running the show, just one single God manifested to us as Jesus Christ.
The fullness of God? We haven't begun to even scratch the surface of God's creation, and we are going to wrap our heads around the creator? what based on the observations and meditations of some centuries dead scholasr? Especially scholars who were empire-building using the vehicle of religion (Catholicism)? Not thinking so.
Jesus Christ is how God himself presented himself to us, gave us what we need to know to be saved, taught us his ways, gave us his word, sent his messengers forth, gave us his spirit. What more are we looking for?
The word says that in him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily? How much more oneness can we get than that.
Sorry. No bonus offer attached to that. Jesus is it. Or hey, maybe there is... buy Jesus, get the Father and the Holy Ghost free, but the Father and the Holy Ghost can't be had without the Jesus offer.
I'm not a theologian. No desire to be. Don't know greek... no desire to learn it.
But I do know that God is able to show himself to me...and he showed me that I have access to everything he is through ONE Jesus.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 03-08-2010 at 04:09 PM.
When I pray, I have yet to ask the Father for a single thing... I talk to the one to whom all power is given. When I have a need, I have yet to call on the Holy Ghost, though I know that the Holy Ghost is in me, which is the Spirit of Christ, I talk to Jesus.
Why not? Do you not believe what Jesus said? Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
And what about Paul???....
“For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” Ephesians 3:14, KJV.
“Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Philippians 4:20, KJV.
“Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:” Colossians 1:12, KJV.
Just a few examples of praying to the father....
Just BeenThinkin
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Well, can someone explain what Oneness doctrine is as compared to Trinitarian doctrine and are there any accepted documents that summarize the Oneness position.
I would assume most of us here consider ourselves "oneness" but there sure is are a lot of differences in the way we explain our beliefs. It is my opinion that there is no single doctrine of "oneness" and there is no single doctrine of "trinity" --just a lot of words and terms trying to explain and clarify a God that is beyond our comprehension and an attempt to fit Him into our doctrinal mold.
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Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Why not? Do you not believe what Jesus said? Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
And what about Paul???....
“For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” Ephesians 3:14, KJV.
“Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Philippians 4:20, KJV.
“Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:” Colossians 1:12, KJV.
Just a few examples of praying to the father....
Just BeenThinkin
No contradiction. When I give thanks to Jesus, I give thanks to the Father.
WHEN i bow knee to the Lord Jesus, I bow to the Father. Because in Jesus the fullness of the godhead dwells.
Bow and pray to a tri-theon? not gonna happen... ever.
I worship the one God of Israel, The I am that I am. His name is Jesus. You see anything else, you BeenThinkin too much.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 03-08-2010 at 08:06 PM.
Prax, there is plenty of info out there on Trinitarian theology. It is Oneness theology I have a hard time finding a definition for. This is not something I have spent a lot of time thinking about or studying but it seems to me that within the Oneness movement it is hard to even find out what the basic Oneness thology is. Some say, Jesus is the Father, some say Jesus is the Son. Some say, Jesus came into existence when he was born some say he was just a man filled with the power of the Holy Ghost.
Growing up I was taught that God manifested himself in flesh and that he came and died on the cross and when you get the Holy Ghost you get Jesus' spirit inside of you. Am I going wrong here?
Honestly I lean more toward trinitarian views than Oneness. Another thing, I am not going to tell people I am Oneness because Christianity thinks Oneness doctrine is heresy. Other than this forum I don't associate with Oneness people anymore.
Prax, this is probably the scripture that really helped seal the deal and made me realize the beauty of the trinity. Here we have Jesus talking about how the Father has given him a bride and that Jesus, the Son, is doing the will of the Father. The Father sent his son to die in our place. He didn't send himself.
John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It's my experience that Trinitarians do not all agree on the same thing and many Trinitarians don't understand their own doctrine, that is why I asked.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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