Read Segraves on "letting down hair"

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

Ok, this just happened to me Saturday-

I was at a conference here in town, the church was not UPC. But Keith I saw someone we knew from when we attended a UPC church.

She relayed this story to me as to why she left: She was somewhere (leaving that part out) and they had just preached this message, just like jfrog is saying, miracles from obedience to uncut hair-
She was one of the few present with obvious cut hair. The pastor's wife comes up to her and says "If you stop cutting your hair, God will put back together your marriage." Well she didn't have any marital problems to begin with! Then they had all the women with uncut hair come to the alter and pray for the sick. You could not come forward to pray for others if you had cut hair.

To a visitor this stuff must look crazy!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I have been following this thread, and admit it amuses me.

Where has Bob been living?

He's like the guy whose wife has been cheating on him for years. His friends have told him over and over about her unfaithfulness, but he is so blinded by love that he just can't see the truth, and refuses to acknowledge that evidence of her adultery exists.

He refuses to believe them because he just loves her too much and still thinks of her purity on their wedding day. He's in love with a memory. That girl no longer exists.

Bob, welcome to the conversation.

This abominable doctrine has been preached for years. All of your AFF friends know this. Doctors Segraves and Bernard know this. You know this.

Stop defending it Bob and start demanding answers.

Somebody's been unfaithful.

Edward,
I really don't think he is doing that. I am seeing a very subtle error in this teaching. When you teach that "for this cause" is talking about angels and hair instead of identifying that as the order of creation and gender disctinction, it can only bring out this subtle teaching.

I think BD is starting to identify that as he has not been taught correctly. At least I hope this is the case.

I doubt very many people, including a host of women, have ever looked at verse 10 and even tried to identify the "cause" spoken of.

It's so subtle that someone can look at you and say, "But, my submission does bring power."

Do you see how subtle that is? The whole thing was presented in the wrong way and it is very easy, if you aren't paying attention, to do it! This is very scary, I think.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

LS used to preach such awesome messages about faith and miracles. It is SO SAD to me that he has gotten stuck on this non sense.

Believe me there is more to spiritual life than the stuff he had been preaching lately-

I agree. First Campmeeting I ever went to LS was preaching and it was awesome

[Praxeas]

BTW the bible tells us it's by FAITH in HIM that miracles are done and it also tells us that if you lack faith to pray and fast.

Obedience is just a reflection of the faith, faith put into action

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I have been following this thread, and admit it amuses me.

Where has Bob been living?

He's like the guy whose wife has been cheating on him for years. His friends have told him over and over about her unfaithfulness, but he is so blinded by love that he just can't see the truth, and refuses to acknowledge that evidence of her adultery exists.

He refuses to believe them because he just loves her too much and still thinks of her purity on their wedding day. He's in love with a memory. That girl no longer exists.

Bob, welcome to the conversation.

This abominable doctrine has been preached for years. All of your AFF friends know this. Doctors Segraves and Bernard know this. You know this.

Stop defending it Bob and start demanding answers.

Somebody's been unfaithful.

Thanks Ed for this enlightening and impassioned appeal!

As I have observed, I hardly think this rises to the level of "abominable doctrine"... I would like to have a one on one with LS to really get to the nuts and bolts of what he believes, but in lieu of that all we have are excerpts and statements he has made. Bernard is not as much in disagreement over the act of laying on of hair as an act to focus faith as Seagraves is, so that in and of itself is not the issue.

There are two main issues supported by LS's statements 1.) the source of authority in the spirit realm by the act of uncut hair (as opposed to the general principles of obedience and submissin) and 2.) women have access to this authority that men do not have... If LS can reconcile these concerns by clarifications 1.) the source of authority in the spirit realm is not the act of uncut hair alone, but the general principles of submission and obedience and 2.) that men who are obedient and submitted have access to authority in the spirit realm as well as women, it would go a long way to clearing this up.

These two points of contention, and the "folk theology" misunderstanding that is opened up because of them, can be rectified by clarification and do not rise to the level of "abominable damnable doctrines" that some alarmists insists, IMHO. If, on the other hand, LS really believes in witchcraft and magical powers in the substance of uncut hair, I agree with your assessment. But from what I have gathered, the former is true, not the latter. This needs to be addressed by LS, leading scholars and authorities, local pastors, but men and women do not need to be drawn and quartered for it! JMHO...

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Edward,
I really don't think he is doing that. I am seeing a very subtle error in this teaching. When you teach that "for this cause" is talking about angels and hair instead of identifying that as the order of creation and gender disctinction, it can only bring out this subtle teaching.

I think BD is starting to identify that as he has not been taught correctly. At least I hope this is the case.

I doubt very many people, including a host of women, have ever looked at verse 10 and even tried to identify the "cause" spoken of.

It's so subtle that someone can look at you and say, "But, my submission does bring power."

Do you see how subtle that is? The whole thing was presented in the wrong way and it is very easy, if you aren't paying attention, to do it! This is very scary, I think.

I think your assessment is accurate here PO. Thanks...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

Ok, this just happened to me Saturday-

I was at a conference here in town, the church was not UPC. But Keith I saw someone we knew from when we attended a UPC church.

She relayed this story to me as to why she left: She was somewhere (leaving that part out) and they had just preached this message, just like jfrog is saying, miracles from obedience to uncut hair-
She was one of the few present with obvious cut hair. The pastor's wife comes up to her and says "If you stop cutting your hair, God will put back together your marriage." Well she didn't have any marital problems to begin with! Then they had all the women with uncut hair come to the alter and pray for the sick. You could not come forward to pray for others if you had cut hair.

To a visitor this stuff must look crazy!

This is destroying the idea of God's order of creation. This is feminizing the church more than it already had been. My bible says CALL FOR THE ELDERS to pray, not CALL FOR THE SPLIT ENDZ

[EA]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Edward,
I really don't think he is doing that. I am seeing a very subtle error in this teaching. When you teach that "for this cause" is talking about angels and hair instead of identifying that as the order of creation and gender disctinction, it can only bring out this subtle teaching.

I think BD is starting to identify that as he has not been taught correctly. At least I hope this is the case.

I doubt very many people, including a host of women, have ever looked at verse 10 and even tried to identify the "cause" spoken of.

It's so subtle that someone can look at you and say, "But, my submission does bring power."

Do you see how subtle that is? The whole thing was presented in the wrong way and it is very easy, if you aren't paying attention, to do it! This is very scary, I think.

PO, Bob seems to be a good guy. Rather intelligent. Loves a good argument.

Trouble is, he's full of it (and no I won't define what "it" is).

He came on AFF with both barrels blasting, running his mouth and burning up his keyboard. He entered the convo as if he knew something everybody else didn't. Time has proven he didn't know squat.

It is still a magic hair message. Witchcraft is still a major component of each message preached about this topic. Women are shaking their hair, and laying their hair on objects and people just as they have been told to.

It's not a minor misunderstanding. It's major false doctrine.

It places faith in objects instead of God. It worships creation instead of the Creator.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I think your assessment is accurate here PO. Thanks...

I think you are trying to find your way and you are supporting those things that have made sense to you, not willing to change them unless more clarification came forth. I can respect that.

Let us bind together in prayer on this issue. That God would close our mind to false doctrine and open our minds and hearts to His truth and His interpretation.

Amen!

Now, I really have to log out! lol

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

PO, Bob seems to be a good guy. Rather intelligent. Loves a good argument.

Trouble is, he's full of it (and no I won't define what "it" is).

He came on AFF with both barrels blasting, running his mouth and burning up his keyboard. He entered the convo as if he knew something everybody else didn't. Time has proven he didn't know squat.

It is still a magic hair message. Witchcraft is still a major component of each message preached about this topic. Women are shaking their hair, and laying their hair on objects and people just as they have been told to.

It's not a minor misunderstanding. It's major false doctrine.

It places faith in objects instead of God. It worships creation instead of the Creator.

Edward,
I've carefully followed his posts and I see him wavering because elements of both are making sense to him. He isn't going to let go and support any one view until he is sure. That is how I'm reading what he is saying and doing here.

I just do not have the right words to express the subtility of this teaching. I was standing next to a woman who was buying into that. She was viewing the "uncut" as "submission" and not realizing that she is placing more emphasis on herself and her power with the angels, which really overrides her husband's authority. She is thinking her focus is on Jesus Christ, but it really isn't. I just don't have the words to express what I am trying to convey. I feel so frustrated. I see the mindset, the feeling, the understanding, but I can't put words to it.