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  #31  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:15 AM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

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Originally Posted by iceniez View Post
I did not realize that it went that far back, I know I could not sign it in conscience myself. I am shocked that They disfellowshiped you after they said No One would come after you. WOW I am deeply saddened to hear this . What kind of message does this send to the ranks?
Actually, they didn't have a choice. However, I personally know more than one minister who directly approached more than one General Supt and said that they were turning in their card because of the AS. They were told to keep their card and continue signing the AS. District Supt's have told their ministers to do the same things as well. Problem is, this is not consistent across the fellowship. In one District you could be the next greatest upcoming minister and in another anathema! That's what happens when politics and power reign the day instead of reaching the lost!
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  #32  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:19 AM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

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Actually, they didn't have a choice. However, I personally know more than one minister who directly approached more than one General Supt and said that they were turning in their card because of the AS. They were told to keep their card and continue signing the AS. District Supt's have told their ministers to do the same things as well. Problem is, this is not consistent across the fellowship. In one District you could be the next greatest upcoming minister and in another anathema! That's what happens when politics and power reign the day instead of reaching the lost!
It is SAD....
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  #33  
Old 03-30-2010, 12:19 PM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceniez View Post
I did not realize that it went that far back, I know I could not sign it in conscience myself. I am shocked that They disfellowshiped you after they said No One would come after you. WOW I am deeply saddened to hear this . What kind of message does this send to the ranks?
It is my understanding that MOW received the left foot of disfellowship because he would not sign the affirmation statement, not for what he was preaching and practicing.

Brothers Becton and Urshan wrote a letter to the UPC ministers dated January 18, 1993 after the annual mid-winter board meeting. It discussed the conviction on "the matter of our doctrinal position on full salvation and our stand on holiness."

Ministers were encouraged to sign the AS with the promise that if they signed "no official can take any action against him, except under the provisions of our Constitution and Judicial Procedure that does not already exist. There is no provision for contesting a signed statement."

The letter states that the resolution "does not give any added powers to officials..." It also says that "The resolution does not allow officials to impose private interpretations of holiness standards. The only person who interprets the statement is the minister himself."

The letter continues. "Some people have argued that the resolution will impose controversial views on subjects such as long sleeves, wedding rings, hair arrangement, church softball games, facial hair, skating rinks and so on. Neither the resolution nor the statement, nor the Articles of Faith mention these subjects. The Articles of Faith mention matters such as immodest dress, worldly sports, and unwholesome music, but the specific definition and application of these principles have always been left to the individual pastor and saint. Moreover, the methods by which a pastor seeks to convert and discipline people who attend his church is in his discretion. Nothing in the resolution changes these prerogatives."

Some people objected to the AS because it requires a pledge to believe the plan of salvation and the holiness standards but only requires the preaching of the holiness standards. I don't know if that is true because I have never been licensed/ordained in the UPC and have never received a copy of the AS from them.

What is really important is to get a signature on the AS from each minister. Who actually put the signature there or whatever is crossed out or added is not important --just as long as there is a signature. So, some have held their nose and signed so they can keep their license. Others have had someone else sign it for them. Others have crossed out words about the standards and added "the Bible" instead. Others have just gone ahead and signed with the thought that nobody really believe those silly rules anyway so it doesn't matter what they say.
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  #34  
Old 03-30-2010, 12:33 PM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

Sam,do the Pastors still have"free reign" so to speak,or do they have to comply to the standards put forth by the UPC ? I am sorry for asking so many questions ,but I am trying to understand the situation.
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Last edited by iceniez; 03-30-2010 at 12:37 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-30-2010, 02:53 PM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

Technically, they have free reign. The only way to remove someone from the fellowship is for: Failure to pay dues; Failure to sign the AS; Blatant moral failure; Judicial Procedure (accusation, investigation, trial, conviction, disfellowship)

Officials have put pressure on ministers by "black-listing" them but they cannot force them out.
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  #36  
Old 03-30-2010, 03:48 PM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

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Originally Posted by DAII View Post
A reliable source has stated that there are preliminary reports of districts requiring new and/or young ministers to sign a "new type" of affirmation ... that is distinct from the Westberg affirmation.

It appears that in this affirmation signees affirm their allegiance to the Holiness article only.

It also appears that this is an HQ suggestion or directive.

Questions by constituents possibly include: Why is an additional layer of affirmation needed when ministers already affirm their beliefs at licensure and every 2 years?

If this is a directive, what is its basis within the by-laws?

More forthcoming.
And yet they wonder why there are fewer and fewer new and younger ministers?
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  #37  
Old 03-30-2010, 04:04 PM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

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And yet they wonder why there are fewer and fewer new and younger ministers?
Less than 5% under 30 ....
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  #38  
Old 03-30-2010, 04:11 PM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

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Less than 5% under 30 ....
I wish I had that kind of foresight when I was under 30.

The UPC as it exists today, and as it has existed since the reaction to the AMF split is simply a colossal waste of a life. Indeed, the seeds were sown right at the time of the merger.

Nothing good ever came from a lie. Nothing good ever comes from repeating those lies. Nothing good comes from living that lie.
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  #39  
Old 03-30-2010, 04:18 PM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

Two UPC ministers that I have spoken to in the past year.

One is a young man and has a home missions church meeting in his home. I saw him several months ago when I was having lunch with an ex UPC and an ex ALJC minister and someone asked him if he was still in the UPC. He rubbed his beard and said that he wouldn't be after January. Well, he has since shaved off the beard but recently joined GNCM. He said it was costing him $1000 a year to remain in the UPC and received nothing from them. He recently told me I'd be surprised if I knew who else was considering GNCM. I didn't ask him to give me any names.

Evidently, GNCM is sorta coming to life under new leadership.

Another is an older man. He has been senior pastor at a church for quite a few years and recently they "relaxed" the standards. I saw him a few months ago and asked him if he was still UPC. He said he was but wasn't sure how much longer they would let him stay. I guess he crosses some stuff out when he signs the AS

Last edited by Sam; 03-30-2010 at 04:24 PM.
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  #40  
Old 03-30-2010, 04:24 PM
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Re: ** Developing: Affirmation of affirmation? *

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Two UPC ministers that I have spoken to in the past year.



Evidently, GNCM is sorta coming to life under new leadership.
What is GNCM?

I don't know of any person who crosses out words on the affirmation statement, writes in Bible, submits it... AND is still allowed to stay in fellowship. If you do, please have them post their experience...
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