The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We perform repentance in our minds, and we receive forgiveness.

Is that performance a work that makes us righteous? Of course not. Everyone agrees. But we have to repent on our own volition and receive from God, without having earned anything in the process. Same with baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues. We receive TONGUES and Spirit baptism, and are not performing a tongue speaking in order to make ourselves righteous. GOD GIVES THE UTTERANCE, not ourselves!

All these details are being overlooked by the one-stepper, I honestly believe.

If Spirit baptism was a work of salvation that Paul preached against, then it would not be us receiving the GIFT of the Spirit, but rather us making self speak in tongues in human ability in order to receive the WAGES of eternal life. This is the all-important point one-step fails to see.

So please stop saying that we preach we must speak in tongues to be saved, as though it is like making ourselves talk in tongues and thereby makes us righteous outside of God's grace. We must speak in tongues as much as we must receive forgiveness, if we want to talk about musts.

PO doesn't believe you receive forgiveness until baptism.

Do you feel you receive forgiveness at repentance or baptism?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

totaly agree as "all" is a work of the mind.

Sorry, faith goes further than a cognitive recognition. Paul addresses that too. We should have a thread to go verse-by-verse through Romans. Wouldn't that be a delight.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

One steppers do not stop to think that they are watching a PHYSICAL ACTION of baptism, and that is the reason they skip a cell in their minds (TIC) and think it is salvation by works to believe it is vital to be baptised for salvation. And since repentance is not a physical act, but a mental act, they excuse repentance. However, mental, or physical, an act is an act. And since neither propose such an act makes us righteous without the efficacy of the cross, baptism is no more "salvation by works" than repentance.

I hope that I have persuaded you to drop the "anti-Evangelical" crusade when it comes to having a discussion with "One Steppers."

You have badly mangled the terminology of the New Testament on this account. I know that your words are probably a reflection of your past interactions with Calvinists and the like; but "One Steppers" were never Calvinists. They have always been solidly in the Arminian tradition.

Your arguments here are as if you were a sports partisan crying out, "Jets rule! Bruins are bums!" when I myself am attempting to cheer for the Avs. Shoot your slap shots at me and my "team" - not Jean Cauvin and his "team."

Baptism was not called a "work" when the debates surrounding the PCI/PAJC merger were being conducted. The "One Steppers" and the "Three Steppers" then were arguing, "What does Repentance accomplish?"

I have argued that repentance is the act of a convert crying out to God for the forgiveness of their sins. I have further argued that God is faithful and just to forgive those sins, thus the blood of Calvary is "applied" to the life of that convert.

As the thread titles states, only the cross can accomplish this.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Pauls whole point anyway is about works is...

1) works that are outside of CHrist that are good that you can claim you deserve eternal life by will not succeed in doing so.
2) he was against one must have precovenant works of goodness stored up to be considered for entrance into covenant and considered judged right to enter before God.
3) belief that works by some form of special righeousing act, by or like circumcision when Pauls' point is that nothing in circumcision itself has a righteousing aspect.

and others...

Way to re-write Paul's words. Abraham was justified before circumcision. It was a gift of God to which he responded at a heart level with faith. End of story. Salvation hasn't changed. He uses Abraham as a pre-law figure to prove this.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen.

REPENTANCE IS AS MUCH A WORK AS BAPTISM! So when we see that, and insist we must repent to be saved, then it makes sense that baptism is part of salvation as well, as Peter said in his epistle, anyway.

People know repentance is not something we do as though we make ourselves righteous. Making ourselves righteous is what is so vile about works that the bible claims do not save us. So repentance is therefore not considered as salvation by works, so one steppers accept repentance as required for salvation. But baptism and Spirit infilling are the same sort of works that repentance is. They do not make us righteous, so one steppers need to stop saying demand for baptism and Spirit infilling are salvation by works. Again, REPENTANCE IS AS MUCH A WORK AS BAPTISM!

Preach!!!!!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

REPENTANCE IS AS MUCH A WORK AS BAPTISM!

I disagree. Dang it, I promised myself I wouldn't post until next week.

Repentance is being misunderstood and misapplied here. Typically, we see it as an action, something that's accomplished.

But repentance as it appears in this discussion is very different and in fact, works in perfect harmony with Romans 10:9-12.

In the Acts command to repent, we are being told to turn, to think differently, to reconsider; it is a condition of complete brokenness and a complete change of heart. We are not being told to slobber and cry at the altar. We're not being told to "work" on something.

It is, in fact, an exact description of what we are told will save us in Romans 10. See it described beautifully here (bolded emphasis mine):




Romans 10:1 Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is that the Jewish people might be saved.


Rom 10:2 I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal.


Rom 10:3 For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Instead, they are clinging to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. They won't go along with God's way.


Rom 10:4 For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.


Rom 10:5 For Moses wrote that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.


Rom 10:6 But the way of getting right with God through faith says, "You don't need to go to heaven" (to find Christ and bring him down to help you).


Rom 10:7 And it says, "You don't need to go to the place of the dead" (to bring Christ back to life again).


Rom 10:8 Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."


Rom 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Rom 10:10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.


Rom 10:11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed.



This is a perfect description of repentance...a change of heart, a complete brokenness, turn, redirection, and a changed way of thinking.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I disagree. Dang it, I promised myself I wouldn't post until next week.

Repentance is being misunderstood and misapplied here. Typically, we see it as an action, something that's accomplished.

But repentance as it appears in this discussion is very different and in fact, works in perfect harmony with Romans 10:9-12.

In the Acts command to repent, we are being told to turn, to think differently, to reconsider; it is a condition of complete brokenness and a complete change of heart. We are not being told to slobber and cry at the altar. We're not being told to "work" on something.

It is, in fact, an exact description of what we are told will save us in Romans 10. See it described beautifully here (bolded emphasis mine):




Romans 10:1 Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is that the Jewish people might be saved.


Rom 10:2 I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal.


Rom 10:3 For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Instead, they are clinging to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. They won't go along with God's way.


Rom 10:4 For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.


Rom 10:5 For Moses wrote that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.


Rom 10:6 But the way of getting right with God through faith says, "You don't need to go to heaven" (to find Christ and bring him down to help you).


Rom 10:7 And it says, "You don't need to go to the place of the dead" (to bring Christ back to life again).


Rom 10:8 Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."


Rom 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Rom 10:10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.


Rom 10:11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed.



This is a perfect description of repentance...a change of heart, a complete brokenness, turn, redirection, and a changed way of thinking.

We are going to kick your butt for breaking your promise

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by jfrog

We are going to kick your butt for breaking your promise

Sorry!

I need to just not log on. I'm an idiot for thinking I can read and keep my mouth shut. But neither Pel nor Jeffrey, who both expound this much better than I, aren't around today. So I blabbed a little!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I disagree. Dang it, I promised myself I wouldn't post until next week.

Repentance is being misunderstood and misapplied here. Typically, we see it as an action, something that's accomplished.

But repentance as it appears in this discussion is very different and in fact, works in perfect harmony with Romans 10:9-12.

In the Acts command to repent, we are being told to turn, to think differently, to reconsider; it is a condition of complete brokenness and a complete change of heart. We are not being told to slobber and cry at the altar. We're not being told to "work" on something.

It is, in fact, an exact description of what we are told will save us in Romans 10. See it described beautifully here (bolded emphasis mine):

Peter stately in his epistle plainly, as well, that baptism saves. And the fact remains that repentance is as much an act as baptism, or speaking in tongues. Let's not get away from the point. Folks claim belief in Acts 2:38 salvation means one must speak in tongues to be saved, and that is salvation by works. That is not honest. Speaking in tongues is something we receive, and cooperate in of our own volition as much as repentance is. That is the principle. And whether Romans mentioned it or not in chapter 10, while it was mentioned in chapter 6 anyway, repentance is as much a work as baptism is.

And no one can say that Romans 10 shows how to be saved while Acts 2:38 does not. that would make the two verses contradictory. Acts 2 also stated that along with the words of verse 38, Peter told them HOW TO BE SAVED.

Romans 10 is not going to go into the details of how sinners are saved, like Acts 2 is because Acts 2 is actually speaking TO SINNERS and Romans is speaking to the church. Pel's (I think it was Pel, forgive me if I am wrong) argument, in all due respect, saying that Romans was speaking to sinners is error. Romans is written to BELIEVERS. ACTS shows actual sermons to sinners.

Sorry bros., you are wrong.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Peter stately in his epistle plainly, as well, that baptism saves. And the fact remains that repentance is as much an act as baptism, or speaking in tongues. Let's not get away from the point. Folks claim belief in Acts 2:38 salvation means one must speak in tongues to be saved, and that is salvation by works. That is not honest. Speaking in tongues is something we receive, and cooperate in of our own volition as much as repentance is. That is the principle. And whether Romans mentioned it or not in chapter 10, while it was mentioned in chapter 6 anyway, repentance is as much as work as baptism is.

And no one can say that Romans 10 shows how to be saved while Acts 2:38 does not. that would make the two verses contradictory. Acts 2 also stated that along with the words of verse 38, Peter told them HOW TO BE SAVED.

Romans 10 is not going to go into the details of how sinners are saved, like Acts 2 is because Acts 2 is actually speaking TO SINNERS and Romans is speaking to the church. Pel's (I think it was Pel, forgive me if I am wrong) argument, in all due respect, saying that Romans was speaking to sinners is error. Romans is written to BELIEVERS. ACTS shows actual sermons to sinners.

Sorry bros., you are wrong.

Maybe we should describe two categories of works. There is one kind of work that is passive where we don't actively do anything. Such is receiving the Holy Ghost.

There is another kind of work where we must actively go out and do something. Baptism is such a work.

So which category does repentance fit into? To repent must we actively do something or does it just kinda happen?