The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

what in the world did I say about baptism regeneration. Plain texts tell you how that relates. As I have said before your view is skewed from start to end when you make baptism a "work" of "ours" to obtain covenant as your positions smell gives havoc to everything you believe in relation to the word of God.

No, I make baptism an equivalent to circumcision, which had a significant meaning for covenant, but is not how salvation came (Romans 4).

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

This is where you're just wrong, Blume. You see, we CAN'T keep up our end of the bargain.

hmmmm So we don' hold up "faithfulness" WOW amazing. Can you saaaaaay false doctrine?

Gen 18:19 I have chosen him52 so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep53 the way of the LORD by doing54 what is right and just. Then the LORD will give55 to Abraham what he promised56 him."

Gen 22:12 "Do not harm the boy!"25 the angel said.26 "Do not do anything to him, for now I know27 that you fear28 God because you did not withhold your son, your only son, from me."
Gen 22:13 Abraham looked up29 and saw30 behind him31 a ram caught in the bushes by its horns. So he32 went over and got the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place "The LORD provides."33 It is said to this day,34 "In the mountain of the LORD provision will be made."35
Gen 22:15 The LORD's angel called to Abraham a second time from heaven
Gen 22:16 and said, " 'I solemnly swear by my own name,'36 decrees the LORD,37 'that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will indeed bless you,38 and I will greatly multiply39 your descendants40 so that they will be as countless as the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession41 of the strongholds42 of their enemies.
Gen 22:18 Because you have obeyed me,43 all the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another44 using the name of your descendants.' "

Gen 26:4 I will multiply your descendants so they will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, and I will give them10 all these lands. All the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using the name of your descendants.11
Gen 26:5 All this will come to pass12 because Abraham obeyed me13 and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."14

oh and you mean like the same law that JEsus obeyed unto righteousness of which the law gave witness... Like Mark 12:29-31 and that he gives us to obey as well? Oh that one! John 15! Yeah... obedience has nothing to do with salvation... (sarcasm)

That was obvious since Abraham on... that's the beauty of the Gospel. The covenantal part of that is God original covenant continued, he'd save those who believe in him by faith."

Again define faith. Faith must have "context" Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. What is said defines "faith" and it's context and restrictions.

He's made that possible through Jesus. To employ new ways of entering into covenant is simply in error.

SHOW ME THE COVENANT ENTERED INTO IN GEN 15

Repentance is what one does BECAUSE OF faith, not to prove their faith. Faith has already happened. We stand justified at that moment.

yes and no... Your "response" being considered "just" does not mean you are IN covenant it means your offering will be accepted as he has judged your heart. Baptism is the place of offering to be united WITH Christ and his death UNTO new life. Which is why again you fail to understand "justice" done and how God judged Abraham's "REPONSE"!

The cross makes all the difference in the world.

It does but it only is "part" of the whole not the whole in itself.

What has not changed is God's everlasting and eternal covenant with His people, which was redeveloped in the New Testament to finally include Gentiles, part of God's plan all along (not just a Plan B repudiation against the Jews).

uh the gentiles could always enter into covenant with God and become a part of his chosen people.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

No, I make baptism an equivalent to circumcision, which had a significant meaning for covenant, but is not how salvation came (Romans 4).

is circumcision of any value? Yes to those under "the law!" Is baptism of any value? YES, to those entering CHrist!

[Jeffrey]

[QUOTE=TheLegalist;895868]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

This is where you're just wrong, Blume. You see, we CAN'T keep up our end of the bargain.

hmmmm So we don' hold up "faithfulness" WOW amazing. Can you saaaaaay false doctrine?

Gen 18:19 I have chosen him52 so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep53 the way of the LORD by doing54 what is right and just. Then the LORD will give55 to Abraham what he promised56 him."

Gen 22:12 "Do not harm the boy!"25 the angel said.26 "Do not do anything to him, for now I know27 that you fear28 God because you did not withhold your son, your only son, from me."
Gen 22:13 Abraham looked up29 and saw30 behind him31 a ram caught in the bushes by its horns. So he32 went over and got the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place "The LORD provides."33 It is said to this day,34 "In the mountain of the LORD provision will be made."35
Gen 22:15 The LORD's angel called to Abraham a second time from heaven
Gen 22:16 and said, " 'I solemnly swear by my own name,'36 decrees the LORD,37 'that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will indeed bless you,38 and I will greatly multiply39 your descendants40 so that they will be as countless as the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession41 of the strongholds42 of their enemies.
Gen 22:18 Because you have obeyed me,43 all the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another44 using the name of your descendants.' "

Gen 26:4 I will multiply your descendants so they will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, and I will give them10 all these lands. All the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using the name of your descendants.11
Gen 26:5 All this will come to pass12 because Abraham obeyed me13 and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."14

oh and you mean like the same law that JEsus obeyed unto righteousness of which the law gave witness... Like Mark 12:29-31 and that he gives us to obey as well? Oh that one! John 15! Yeah... obedience has nothing to do with salvation... (sarcasm)






Again define faith. Faith must have "context" Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. What is said defines "faith" and it's context and restrictions.



SHOW ME THE COVENANT ENTERED INTO IN GEN 15




yes and no... Your "response" being considered "just" does not mean you are IN covenant it means your offering will be accepted as he has judged your heart. Baptism is the place of offering to be united WITH Christ and his death UNTO new life. Which is why again you fail to understand "justice" done and how God judged Abraham's "REPONSE"!



It does but it only is "part" of the whole not the whole in itself.



uh the gentiles could always enter into covenant with God and become a part of his chosen people.

When you get this TL, you'll have a whole new appreciate for the cross.... are you ready... .NO!!!!! WE CAN'T KEEP UP OUR END OF THE BARGAIN!!!!! NO!!!! If we could, we wouldn't even need the cross!!!! This has been the story of our lot since the beginning. We screw up. Keep screwing up. By faith, and through the indwelled spirit, we can walk with Him through sanctification toward perfection, but continually get it wrong and fail. And when we think we are DOING it right, a little survey of our thought life will humble us (Jesus to the pompous Pharisees, "you think you are doing so good by not cheating on your wife, well I tell you anyone who even thinks it in his heart has done so." In other words, Jesus is affirming, don't front. None of you can do it on your own.')

This is the beauty of the story, my friend. Not that we aren't called to "be who we are in Christ," and to walk in sanctification by the Spirit, but that we are literally OFF THE HOOK!!!!

He obeyed when we couldn't. He was faithful when we weren't. The Gentiles could ALWAYS do so, but they didn't because of the poor and lousy elitism of the Jews. Paul's argument is definitely all for the inclusion of the Gentiles, making it plain and clear. It's not ethnic, and it's not by circumcision, it's by faith. This wasn't just to make it easier on the Gentiles (though shedding foreskin as an adult is surely easier), but it's a Hillen-style hermeneutic pointing back to Abraham as the father of the original covenant, and to show consistency that the way in has never changed.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

is circumcision of any value? Yes to those under "the law!" Is baptism of any value? YES, to those entering CHrist!

Of value, yes.

For the purpose of justification and righteousness, no.

BTW... you don't see the Jews having a separate way into heaven outside of Messiah do you?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

hmmmm So we don' hold up "faithfulness" WOW amazing. Can you saaaaaay false doctrine?

Gen 18:19 I have chosen him52 so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep53 the way of the LORD by doing54 what is right and just. Then the LORD will give55 to Abraham what he promised56 him."

Gen 22:12 "Do not harm the boy!"25 the angel said.26 "Do not do anything to him, for now I know27 that you fear28 God because you did not withhold your son, your only son, from me."
Gen 22:13 Abraham looked up29 and saw30 behind him31 a ram caught in the bushes by its horns. So he32 went over and got the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place "The LORD provides."33 It is said to this day,34 "In the mountain of the LORD provision will be made."35
Gen 22:15 The LORD's angel called to Abraham a second time from heaven
Gen 22:16 and said, " 'I solemnly swear by my own name,'36 decrees the LORD,37 'that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will indeed bless you,38 and I will greatly multiply39 your descendants40 so that they will be as countless as the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession41 of the strongholds42 of their enemies.
Gen 22:18 Because you have obeyed me,43 all the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another44 using the name of your descendants.' "

Gen 26:4 I will multiply your descendants so they will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, and I will give them10 all these lands. All the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using the name of your descendants.11
Gen 26:5 All this will come to pass12 because Abraham obeyed me13 and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."14

oh and you mean like the same law that JEsus obeyed unto righteousness of which the law gave witness... Like Mark 12:29-31 and that he gives us to obey as well? Oh that one! John 15! Yeah... obedience has nothing to do with salvation... (sarcasm)






Again define faith. Faith must have "context" Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. What is said defines "faith" and it's context and restrictions.



SHOW ME THE COVENANT ENTERED INTO IN GEN 15




yes and no... Your "response" being considered "just" does not mean you are IN covenant it means your offering will be accepted as he has judged your heart. Baptism is the place of offering to be united WITH Christ and his death UNTO new life. Which is why again you fail to understand "justice" done and how God judged Abraham's "REPONSE"!



It does but it only is "part" of the whole not the whole in itself.



uh the gentiles could always enter into covenant with God and become a part of his chosen people.

vs 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [d] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

Really God chose Abraham, a pagan, in Chapter 12. Abraham did nothing to deserve God's election. But God chose Him. Abraham responded. The Blessing covenant in Chapter 12 precedes the covenant of Chapter 15 in fact. God's intentions and plans for Abraham were initiated in Chapter 12.

As far as you fulfilling your "terms of the covenant," how's that working out for you? What a joy to know that He did on my behalf.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

CONDITIONAL????????? Holy ......... Seriously. Jesus died because we couldn't freaking live up to the "terms of conditions." He made a way!! If it's conditional, and his side of the bargain is like an earned wage, you've missed the entire Pauline thought of salvation by faith. I thought we were farther along than this!!!!

You go, Jeff!!!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

CONDITIONAL????????? Holy ......... Seriously. Jesus died because we couldn't freaking live up to the "terms of conditions." He made a way!! If it's conditional, and his side of the bargain is like an earned wage, you've missed the entire Pauline thought of salvation by faith. I thought we were farther along than this!!!!

Legalist: Because Jeffrey just used this euphemism, is he now backslidden?

[TheLegalist]

[QUOTE=Jeffrey;895872]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

When you get this TL, you'll have a whole new appreciate for the cross.... are you ready... .NO!!!!! WE CAN'T KEEP UP OUR END OF THE BARGAIN!!!!! NO!!!!

The law provided for SIN! HELLO! JUst as our new covenant provides for SIN! CHRIST and turning from it and asking for forgiveness from the heart.

That is why this scripture is true....

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

It is you who set up false issues and paradigms in your mind.

If we could, we wouldn't even need the cross!!!! This has been the story of our lot since the beginning. We screw up. Keep screwing up. By faith, and through the indwelled spirit, we can walk with Him through sanctification toward perfection, but continually get it wrong and fail. And when we think we are DOING it right, a little survey of our thought life will humble us (Jesus to the pompous Pharisees, "you think you are doing so good by not cheating on your wife, well I tell you anyone who even thinks it in his heart has done so." In other words, Jesus is affirming, don't front. None of you can do it on your own.')

Who said we didn't the point is OBEDIENCE IS JUDGED UNTO PROMISE! IT WAS TRUE WITH ABRAHAM AND NOW!

This is the beauty of the story, my friend. Not that we aren't called to "be who we are in Christ," and to walk in sanctification by the Spirit, but that we are literally OFF THE HOOK!!!!

OFF THE HOOK to DO HIS COMMANDMENTS TO ABIDE and be judged FAITHFUL as ABRAHAM to OBTAIN THE PROMISE???????

YOU fail his word with your itching ear doctrine and negate the power of grace to overcome and DO HIS WILL! THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE NEW COVENANT! You doctrine is false and heretical it makes the cross noneffect to overcome by his Spirit. We walk in sanctification as JUDGMENT THAT WE ARE ABIDING BY DOING!

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 11:21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

He obeyed when we couldn't. He was faithful when we weren't. The Gentiles could ALWAYS do so, but they didn't because of the poor and lousy elitism of the Jews. Paul's argument is definitely all for the inclusion of the Gentiles, making it plain and clear. It's not ethnic, and it's not by circumcision, it's by faith. This wasn't just to make it easier on the Gentiles (though shedding foreskin as an adult is surely easier), but it's a Hillen-style hermeneutic pointing back to Abraham as the father of the original covenant, and to show consistency that the way in has never changed.

Nice way to ignore every point I made and ASKED for a response SHOW ME THE COVENANT IN GEN 15!

I will ask again is obedience forensic or intrinsic to salvation?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

vs 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

There is no covenant HERE!

18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [d] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

SHEESH READ the Bible this is a DIFFRENT COVENANT!

This covenant came about BECAUSE ABRAHAM DID WHAT GOD ASKED in Gen 12!

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.
Gen 12:2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
Gen 12:4 So Abram went, as the LORD had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Gen 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people that they had acquired in Haran, and they set out to go to the land of Canaan. When they came to the land of Canaan,
Gen 12:6 Abram passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land.
Gen 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land." So he built there an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.


Oh and NOTICE what else GOD REQUIRED HIM TO DO TO ENTER COVENANT FOR "THE LAND!"

NOTICE THE BREAK! God deals what HE PREVIOUSLY had dealt with Abraham about!

Gen 15:7 And he said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."
Gen 15:8 But he said, "O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" (OBTAIN IT!)
Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.
Gen 15:11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.

Gen 15:17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.
Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,

This is not the COVENANT MADE WITH ABRAHAM IN GEN 22 that deals with the offspring in which Gen 15:6 deals with!

I showed this and YOU STILL IGNORE IT! LAND and SEED COVENANTS ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! BOTH was offered IF he did what was commanded.

Really God chose Abraham, a pagan, in Chapter 12. Abraham did nothing to deserve God's election. But God chose Him. Abraham responded. The Blessing covenant in Chapter 12 precedes the covenant of Chapter 15 in fact. God's intentions and plans for Abraham were initiated in Chapter 12.

As far as you fulfilling your "terms of the covenant," how's that working out for you? What a joy to know that He did on my behalf.

God always has reasons to choose it's called God judged his life as a individual. God gives GRACE to the HUMBLE! Many are called FEW CHOSEN.... SAME THEME AS ALWAYS!
Oh so you don't take reformed doctrine but yet you spew it? So you don't have to be obedient he did it for you? That is OSAS as it gets!