The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I agree with the bolded. But since we are debating the semantics of such, we are trying to define how one repents. I argue that it's almost inseparable from belief. It's an osmosis of faith.

So is anything, for that matter, that is a work in the context of FAITH THAT WORKS. That is my point. Correct baptism is a work in the same category of FAITH THAT WORKS. The "work" in faith that "works" is inseparable from faith, since it would not occur if the faith did not exist.

[mfblume]

BUMP for notofworks

Originally Posted by mfblume

Here is why righteousness needs to be studied.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

WHOA!, Lord. Pick me off the floor and explain that to me!

Rom 4:3-7 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What does Paul mean by "works of righteousness"?

What does imputing righteousness without works mean?

Are works out the window? Evidently not.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Lookie at James:

Jas 2:17-24 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

People think James was right and Paul was wrong when they read James 2 and then compare that with Paul:

James 2:24 (24) ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Paul said a lot about righteousness related to salvation, and works.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And someone said the issue of righteousness is not complicated.

What is complicated about it is that its relationship with works determines whether or not those works are exerted erringly.

People told me that works justify the believer according to James, but Paul said we are not justified by works.

People need to be able to reconcile James with Paul. There is no contradiction, when one realizes that James meant justifying OUR CLAIMS, not the states of ourselves for salvation, whereas Paul spoke of justifying the state of self for salvation, there is no contradiction.

When RIGHTEOUSNESS is an odd addition to the concept of salvation, a person NEEDS TO STUDY the issue of RIGHTEOUSNESS in the bible, and what place it has in relation to salvation, a little more. They never taught me THAT one in bible school. I wish they did! What embarrassment I experienced! Whew!

Still think it is not complex, notofworks? I am still trying to get a better handle on James, too.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Notofworks said it.

Here:





It is not inseparable, because one can c;actually believe in Christ's salvation and refuse to repent. TRULY believing that Jesus is who He said He is, that He is the source of life, wellspring of truth, a provider, powerful, glorious, gracious, etc... TRULY believing can produce only repentance. Nothing else. Otherwise, it was, as you and TL often say, just mental assent. Belief is a deep, heart-level thing. It's a new birth. This occurred with me before I got saved for a period.



No, repent means to TURN FROM SIN also. Consciously DO THE CORRECT WORK, but repentance is not a work that makes us righteous in and of itself. Sorry guys, I am going to repeat "repentance is not a work that makes us righteous in and of itself," so long as this issue is something I choose to remain interested in discussing. lol

I refer back to my comments on repentance for your latter paragraph. Otherwise, it's pure moralism.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So is anything, for that matter, that is a work in the context of FAITH THAT WORKS. That is my point. Correct baptism is a work in the same category of FAITH THAT WORKS. The "work" in faith that "works" is inseparable from faith, since it would not occur if the faith did not exist.

Be hearing I need to be baptized, agreeing to it, changing my clothes and participating in a baptism service is simply not in the same remote category as believing and turning my heart toward Christ.

It's silly I have to insist on that. It's so obvious, Mike. You MUST insist to support your entire theory about "works." I just don't see it as a very sound theory.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, repent means to TURN FROM SIN also.

The TURN FROM SIN is the TURN TO CHRIST. I understand your objection to the equivocation of repentance to belief and we can dissect words and their meanings 'til the cows come home and argue over terminologies.

But I'm talking about our salvation coming at the point of repentance, salvation that comes when we believe. Is repentance completely belief? I'm not saying that it is and I don't really think it's an enormous point in the dialogue. If you need to separate faith and repentance and call them completely different things, I'm not gonna yell and scream about it and I'm not terribly interested in arguing about it.

My point is, belief, the turn, faith, repentance....these are not works. We are declared righteous because of our faith and it is faith...belief...confesses Jesus as Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead.

[Jeffrey]

“Sinners still reject the righteousness of God because they cannot earn it. It is absolutely free They stumble over the offer because it deprives them of any proprietary involvement in their own salvation. It is pride that brings people down. How deeply ingrained is our rebellious self-esteem! Too proud to accept God’s willingness to forgive, sinners stumble headlong into eternity with their stubborn sinfulness intact” (Mounce 206). The “stumbling stone” of 9:32 is the message of justification by faith alone. “The (person) who seeks to establish his own righteousness, however virtuous he may be, can be only a rebellious creature of God” (C.K. Barrett, quoted by Mounce, 207).

[Jeffrey]

Yeah. What he said.
http://yourjourney.typepad.com/mark_....html#comments

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

The TURN FROM SIN is the TURN TO CHRIST. I understand your objection to the equivocation of repentance to belief and we can dissect words and their meanings 'til the cows come home and argue over terminologies.

But I'm talking about our salvation coming at the point of repentance, salvation that comes when we believe. Is repentance completely belief? I'm not saying that it is and I don't really think it's an enormous point in the dialogue. If you need to separate faith and repentance and call them completely different things, I'm not gonna yell and scream about it and I'm not terribly interested in arguing about it.

My point is, belief, the turn, faith, repentance....these are not works. We are declared righteous because of our faith and it is faith...belief...confesses Jesus as Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead.

AGAIN justification does not mean one has come into covenant! PERIOD!

[mfblume]

Brethren, if you cannot see how repentance is a work in the sense that we choose to do it, and we may or may not do it once we have faith, and if you choose to believe there is no all-important difference between faith THAT WORKS and works that make us righteous in and of themselves, then I can only conclude you have not studied the issue of righteousness in the bible adequately enough. IMHO, that is. Hence, we're at loggerheads.

And that is why you care less if someone really ever gets baptized and how the New Testament is so insistent on it by contrast. Until you realize mental turning to Christ and from sin is an action, and say more than "walking old ladies across the street is a work, but turning the heart is not," we get no where. But I have enjoyed the chat.

[mfblume]

Brethren, explain these passages:

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Good for starters.