The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

It's cool TL. Ignore all my comments from last night. Still not smart enough to deserve a response from you.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

James 2 needs to be understood... gasp... in context.

Why is James telling his audience to have "good works." So that they know how to be saved? NO! That's a starting point...

I will admit to scratching my head just a bit when James 2 has been referred to in the salvational discussion. I thought about throwing in a discussion of Daniel 3 and the fiery furnace, but that might add confusion to the confusion.

So what, exactly, does giving one's coat to a cold stranger rather than praying for him, have to do with salvation? I'll study for a while and see what I can come up with.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I will admit to scratching my head just a bit when James 2 has been referred to in the salvational discussion. I thought about throwing in a discussion of Daniel 3 and the fiery furnace, but that might add confusion to the confusion.

So what, exactly, does giving one's coat to a cold stranger rather than praying for him, have to do with salvation? I'll study for a while and see what I can come up with.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Because it didn't happen the same way for the men that Paul ran across in Ephesus.

I think you're mistaken here, Pressing. In both Acts 10 and 19 faith in the Gospel of Christ brought the bestowal of the Spirit.

That shows me that either way - you must obey what Peter preached.

We must obey 'the Gospel' Peter preached. How does one obey the Gospel? If one must be baptized in order to 'obey the Gospel,' then the command to 'be baptized' becomes part of the Gospel. The Gospel is news of the historic death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. While baptism dramatizes the Gospel, it is definitely NOT the Gospel, nor is it part of it.

Cornelius obeyed the Gospel prior to being baptized. God bore witness to his obedience of faith by giving him the Spirit.

That is exactly what Cornelius did. It didn't matter that he received the Holy Ghost after repentance, he still obeyed and was baptized.

It matters that God only gives the Spirit to those who obey and that God gave Cornelius the Spirit for his obedience to the Gospel.

As I stated, using Cornelius alone isn't going to work. It didn't happen that way for the men in Ephesus.

I believe you are wrong here. It most certainly did happen the same way at Ephesus. In each case, God gave them the Spirit as witness to their faith in Christ. In each case, Christ was preached, believed on, and the Spirit bore witness to their faith.

They did believe what Paul preached - they believed - but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after they were baptized.

Irrelevant. God bore witness to their faith by giving them the Spirit.

Was the "answer of a good conscience" after baptism what they needed to believe they could be filled? Maybe so.

Show me where someone must believe in an infilling. Faith is to be in the historic message of the Gospel. God gives the Spirit to those who obediently believe the Gospel. The disciples of John believed on Christ and were given the Spirit as Cornelius believed on Christ and was given the Spirit. God in each case bore witness to their faith in the Gospel by giving them the Spirit.

Maybe Cornelius only needed repentance and an understanding to believe and have faith enough to be filled. Apparently he did. I do know that God knows the heart of every man and I leave that in God's hands. Either way, the Gospel is preached.

The repentant heart of Cornelius converted to Christ upon hearing the Gospel. God bore witness to his faith in the Gospel by giving him the Spirit as He does to all believers. The Spirit is given TO ALL who obediently believe (John 7:37-39; Acts 5:32). ALL who believe have been given the Spirit of eternal life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

When the death, burial and resurrection is preached, willing hearts will respond and be filled. It doesn't make any difference to me when they are filled. I want to make sure they know what Peter preached - repent, be baptized and you will be filled. The promise is unto you and to your children and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You mistakenly think repentance, baptism, and being "filled" are part of the Gospel. They are not. The Gospel is a historic message to be believed by the heart. Those who obediently believe are given life. The account of Cornelius proves this obedience is of faith alone.

[Jeffrey]

Welcome to the party, Adino... 100 pages later! Sheesh!

[Adino]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

God had already seen his life as a God-Fearer and he had a good report among the Jews.

Irrelevant. In regard to Spirit reception, this doesn't matter in the least because the Spirit was not given as witness to his 'good life' but to his heart's conversion to faith 'in the Gospel' (Acts 15:7-8). The possibility for faith and Spirit reception DID NOT EXIST until the Gospel had been presented to Cornelius. Faith 'in the Gospel' could not exist until the Gospel had been preached and the Spirit was given to bear witness of faith. Only after someone hears the word of Truth can he have faith in that Truth and be spiritually 'born by that word' (1Peter 1:23) and/or 'sealed with the holy Spirit of promise' (Ephesians 1:13).

Since the opportunity for saving faith and Spirit reception did not even exist for Cornelius until he had been introduced to the Gospel message, anything performed by Cornelius prior to his hearing of the Gospel is completely IRRELEVANT in regard to receiving the Spirit given to those who obey. God gives the Spirit only to those who obey 'the Gospel,' so it must be concluded that upon hearing the word of faith from Peter Cornelius obeyed the Gospel to the point of Spirit reception simply by believing.

Thus God knew by his actions his heart.

Your implication seems to attack the omniscience of God. You imply God doesn't know the heart of man until the heart is made externally manifest by action. The whole point that 'God knows the hearts' brought up by Peter was to emphasize that God knew the Gentiles had IN THEIR HEART believed THE GOSPEL. God bore witness to a faith which had not yet been externally demonstrated.

Cornelius' faith IN THE GOSPEL did not exist prior to hearing the preaching of Peter. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Only after Peter shared the Gospel message did the opportunity for an obedience of faith exist:

1) Peter preached the Gospel
2) Cornelius heard the Gospel
3) Cornelius believed the Gospel
4) God, who knows the hearts, gave the Spirit to bear witness that the Gentiles had believed the Gospel (Acts 15:7-8).

Again, the only obedience Cornelius did upon hearing the Gospel was to believe. God, who gives the Spirit only to those who obey, gave the Spirit to Cornelius bearing witness to his obedient faith.

Peter preaching was simple SHOW UP start preaching the gospel and witness the acceptance of the Gentiles.

Peter preached the Gospel, the Gentiles accepted it by faith, and God bore witness to their faith by giving them the Spirit.

Peter then brings them into covenant with Christ by baptism.

Cornelius reaped the benefits of a covenantal relationship with God before he was baptized as do all who believe (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Welcome to the party, Adino... 100 pages later! Sheesh!

LOL..... I know, I know.... I need more hours in the day. Have to get up in about 3 hours as it is!!!! It'll probably be another hundred pages before I get back Cover for me until then, Bro!

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

hmmmm define deed! I think work/deed/response all fall into the realm and I believe Blume has went over this many times as well.

When reading James please clarify these points...

1) when does justification take place.
2) Is the word "believed" in Gen 15:6 judged/considered as limited to that scripture or with all in view completed in Gen 22 at the offering of Isaac?
3) "Scritpure was fulfilled" please show how it relates to the whole of the text in James 2
4) What is teh clear statement of James about faith in James 2?

First of all, I'm sure that everything in this thread has been covered by plenty of people for a few years now, that doesn't mean, however, that I'm going to read EVERYTHING that has been posted here...I don't have the time nor the inclination to do so. I'll interlope where I can.

Second,

1. Justification takes place at the moment of faith
2. I think Paul establishes that Abraham's justification in Genesis 15 was a declaration by God that lasted Abraham's lifetime including before/after Genesis 22.
3. What are you talking about?
4. Dead faith cannot save. But since God gives faith, then the faith that God gives is NOT dead.

a

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by augustianian

First of all, I'm sure that everything in this thread has been covered by plenty of people for a few years now, that doesn't mean, however, that I'm going to read EVERYTHING that has been posted here...I don't have the time nor the inclination to do so. I'll interlope where I can.

that's fine.

Second,

1. Justification takes place at the moment of faith

So in James 2 he says justification take place "at" faith? I am strictly referring to James definition and context of "faith" in James 2.

2. I think Paul establishes that Abraham's justification in Genesis 15 was a declaration by God that lasted Abraham's lifetime including before/after Genesis 22.

You have ignored my questions. I am strictly talking about James and what he says.

3. What are you talking about?

Look at the text. How does in "the scripture was fulfilled" in James 2 interelate to the context of James points.

4. Dead faith cannot save. But since God gives faith, then the faith that God gives is NOT dead.

Well that's nice now you point to what James says but you have not answered the points concerning what I asked.

a[/QUOTE]

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by augustianian

just jumping in...haven't read everything in this thread.

Is a person justified before he does any deeds in James 2?

The apparent "contradiction" between Paul's discourse on Genesis 15:6 (found in Romans 4) and James' statements concerning Genesis 22, have caused a lot of people to think the two apostles were at odds with one another.

However, the fact that they are tackling a difficult and complex theological issue by making references to two different events in the life of Abraham should help us to untangle the "contradiction."

In answer to your question, I'd say "yes." James says that Abraham's "faith was made perfect" by his act of obedience in Genesis 22. James is kind of stepping back to get a broader picture than Paul's analysis of just Genesis 15:6, where Abraham is "justified."

The thing to understand is that Paul is often going back "to the foundation" by his constant appeals to Genesis 15:6, and justification by faith. It's as if Abraham had wavered in Genesis 22 (which he does not appear to have done, but if he had...), and then someone appeared to remind Abe of the events that had happened previously in his life and focused upon how God had declared him "righteous" just upon the basis of his belief. With the renewed faith in God's active participation in Abraham's life, the old patriarch them moves forward in greater confidence.

The Romans (and so many others) appear to have been experiencing some wavering of faith. They needed a boost. Paul provides that "boost" by pointing out that God Himself has already participated in their walk of faith and has done things for them that they could never do for themselves (justification). After touching bases with the cross again in Romans 4, Paul moves forward in Romans 5, and shows the continued need for faith, patience, hope and all the other things that will get them through their "Genesis 22" experiences.