Gay Pastor's(xupc)recent Letter to the UPCI ! ! !

Originally Posted by HappyPastor2

Brad, New Testament grace is not a license to live any way that you would like to simply because of grace. Jesus died to save us FROM our sins, not IN our sins. You think that something that was once an abomination to God (who does not change) would no longer be an abomination to Him?

If Christ died to save us FROM our sins, and if my being born a homosexual is a sin, then why hasn't Christ saved me FROM my sin?

God absolutely does not change but the way in which He interacts with man certainly does change. God's requirements of man have changed in every recorded dispensation. God is a relational God and responds and changes according to His relationship with His creation. Look at Abraham and Isaac. First God required that Isaac be sacrificed but when Abraham showed that he trusted and feared God Isaac was no longer required as the sacrifice. What if Abraham had not feared God? Isaac would have been sacrificed. This shows that God does interact with his creation and may not change in His own character but certainly changes in regards to His relationship with his children.

As far as abominations are concerned, I think I've made it pretty clear in previous posts that nobody in this dispensation of Grace abstains from all of the OT abominations. It has been argued that only certain abominations from the OT Law are required of us today yet nowhere does the NT writings divide the Law into categories; some being eternal and some not. The modern 21st Century church is going to eventually have to confess that it is only following part of the Law and make a decision to embrace all of it or discard all of it.

[Charlie Brown]

Originally Posted by brad2723

What would you (by you I mean anyone reading this post) do if in 10 years it was discovered that there is in fact a sexual orientation gene? How would the church reconcile their belief that sexual orientation is not natural and somehow a choice?

Even more thought provoking is this question. Do you believe you were born with your sexual orientation or do you believe it was learned?

So if 10 years from now they find that there is a specific gene that makes someone a murderer, or a pedophile, should we reconcile that since God made them that way, we should accept them as ok?

Very likely a honmosexual could have been born with these tendancies, as we are ALL born sinners, with a fallen nature. It does not excuse the actions just because we have the tendancy to lean that way. I was born a lier, and a thief. But when I came to the cross, the old man had to be cricified, put to death, and buried with him in baptism. As the scripture states:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


There is never an excuse to continue to live in the bondages of the old man.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by brad2723

You are saying, then, that since God has smote individuals with blindness, dumbness, and barrenness that those things are "not innocent" and are "sin?" Please clarify.

They are states that God considers punishment because they are bad and wrong. Would God will that everyone be blind? No. It is something God does not want people to experience. That is the case with everything to which He gives people over. The whole category of what God gives people over to is simply a category of punishment, and punishment is not something that is innocent and nice and God's will for people. It is only his will if He wishes to HURT a person in punishment. If the punishment does not HURT, then it is not punishment.

I wish you would answer the overall thought I am making that God does not give one over to anything that is nice and innocent of itself, proving homosexuality is wrong.

Originally Posted by brad2723

If Christ died to save us FROM our sins, and if my being born a homosexual is a sin, then why hasn't Christ saved me FROM my sin?

Well, you weren't born homosexual since no one is born sexually/romantically attracted to another. Homosexual sin is when you choose to embrace and/or act on your unnatural attraction that developed during childhood. One is saved from one's sins (meaning that sin no longer has power over the person) when one repents of his sins and puts his trust in Christ (see Romans 6). This doesn't mean you become morally perfect but it does mean you are no longer a slave to sin.

God absolutely does not change but the way in which He interacts with man certainly does change.

Agreed.

God's requirements of man have changed in every recorded dispensation. God is a relational God and responds and changes according to His relationship with His creation.

I disagree. God's standard has always been moral perfection. However, God has also always accepted faith and accounted that faith as righteousness. In the Old Testament, He did this looking forward to the cross. In the New Testament, He does it looking back to the cross.

Look at Abraham and Isaac. First God required that Isaac be sacrificed but when Abraham showed that he trusted and feared God Isaac was no longer required as the sacrifice. What if Abraham had not feared God? Isaac would have been sacrificed. This shows that God does interact with his creation and may not change in His own character but certainly changes in regards to His relationship with his children.

The only reason God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac was to test his faith. Remember what Abraham said to Isaac when Isaac asked Abraham where the lamb was for the sacrifice. Abraham said that God would provide the sacrifice.

As far as abominations are concerned, I think I've made it pretty clear in previous posts that nobody in this dispensation of Grace abstains from all of the OT abominations. It has been argued that only certain abominations from the OT Law are required of us today yet nowhere does the NT writings divide the Law into categories; some being eternal and some not. The modern 21st Century church is going to eventually have to confess that it is only following part of the Law and make a decision to embrace all of it or discard all of it.

I don't think anyone here argued that God requires any abomination of us. In fact, I think everyone here would agree that God does not want us to engage in any abomination. But in the Old Testament there were two kinds of abominations: 1) things that were ceremonially unclean and; 2) things that were morally detestable. But let's leave the whole abomination thing aside for a moment. It doesn't change the Biblical truth that homosexual behavior (including the thoughts) is sin and that homosexual attraction is contrary to God's created design for male and female. All of these various side issues about abominations and the like are really irrelevant. What matters is: 1) that you have an unnatural sexual/romantic attraction that needs to be healed and; 2) as long as you continue to embrace and/or act on the attraction, you are still committing homosexual sin and will not inherit the kingdom of God until you repent of your sin (meaning to agree with God about your sin, be genuinely sorry that your sin has offended and angered God, and to forsake that sin).

Originally Posted by Charlie Brown

I have read this discussion with interest. I would like to ask a question of you Brad.

My understanding is that you do not believe someone with homosexual desires (don't know a better way to put it) is not being sinful. It is when someone acts upon those desires, and engages in the sexual act with the same sex that they step over the line.

Is my understanding of your position correct?

I think I may have misrepresented myself or possibly mis-spoke. I will clarify.

I believe that IF every scripture that people continue to quote from the OT and NT are to be understood the way in which everyone in this room seems to understand them that they still only speak against homosexual sex and NOT desires or emotions. That is to say, according to the arguments provided in this room, two homosexuals should be able to live together and have an intimate relationship, without performing sodomy, and still be living within the restrictions of the OT Law. I would go so far as to say that the OT Law was not even written to all of Israel but specifically to the Levitical Preists. I cannot in my own heart and mind come to the conclusion that we are under any of the Levitical Law.

In fact, I personally do not believe we are under any part of the Law except that which was identified in the book of Acts chapter 15. That is why I do not honor a seventh day sabbath. I personally am not involved with anyone physically but I do not feel that doing so in a committed and monogamous manner is sinful or abominable because of OT Levitical Law.

My only point in mentioning that I am not involved with anyone physically was to defend against someone accusing me of going to hell because of my homosexual behavior. Though I do not feel I will go to hell if I do engage in homosexual behavior I felt I should at least clarify that I am not currently engaging in such activity.

I don't know if that helps clarify or not : ) I keep telling myself I'm going to do a better job of paraphrasing my thoughts but I tend to ramble. Of course, I'm trying to study for finals while participating in this discussion so I am a little preoccupied...lol

Originally Posted by mfblume

They are states that God considers punishment because they are bad and wrong. Would God will that everyone be blind? No. It is something God does not want people to experience. That is the case with everything to which He gives people over. The whole category of what God gives people over to is simply a category of punishment, and punishment is not something that is innocent and nice and God's will for people. It is only his will if He wishes to HURT a person in punishment. If the punishment does not HURT, then it is not punishment.

I wish you would answer the overall thought I am making that God does not give one over to anything that is nice and innocent of itself, proving homosexuality is wrong.

I have answered. Homosexually cannot be defined as wrong because it was used as punisher by God. Following your argument, someone being blind is sinful. My point is that homosexuality is not a pleasant experience for anyone who goes through it. You are rejected by society, you are misunderstood, you are rejected by your church, often your family, you are likely never going to experience raising a child of your own, etc. but these unfortunate results of homosexuality cannot define homosexuality as sinful. A blind person experiences many unfortunate experiences that are not innocent or nice but that does not make blindness a sin. I don't know, maybe I'm completely misunderstanding your point.

Originally Posted by Chan

I don't think anyone here argued that God requires any abomination of us. In fact, I think everyone here would agree that God does not want us to engage in any abomination. But in the Old Testament there were two kinds of abominations: 1) things that were ceremonially unclean and; 2) things that were morally detestable. But let's leave the whole abomination thing aside for a moment. It doesn't change the Biblical truth that homosexual behavior (including the thoughts) is sin and that homosexual attraction is contrary to God's created design for male and female. All of these various side issues about abominations and the like are really irrelevant. What matters is: 1) that you have an unnatural sexual/romantic attraction that needs to be healed and; 2) as long as you continue to embrace and/or act on the attraction, you are still committing homosexual sin and will not inherit the kingdom of God until you repent of your sin (meaning to agree with God about your sin, be genuinely sorry that your sin has offended and angered God, and to forsake that sin).

Again, we are making an assumption that the NT Church is under some of the Law; that being the moral law as opposed to the ceremonial law. Again I present the fact that when Paul said we are no longer under the Law he made no distinction between different catagories of Law (Galatians 3). I don't know how else to state this fact. It is very clear to me.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by brad2723

Lev 18:19-20 - "You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness."

Deut 21:18-21 - "18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

Seems pretty plainly stated as well yet I don't think too many Christians would advocate the enforcement of these Scriptures.

That's not really a rebuttel of what the verse is saying. In fact it makes it seem as though you agree that at one time homosexual acts was sinful and punishable by stoning.....

[Charlie Brown]

Interesting rebuttal to the pro homosexual campaign.


http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstu...mosexualuc.htm

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by brad2723

If homosexuality is an abomination (unclean) then wouldn't the concept of being sanctified eternally as stated in Hebrews 10:14 be applicable to homosexuals as well as menstruating women?

I'm still not able to subscribe to this concept of "ceremonial law" being fulfilled. It seems abundantly clear that ALL the Law has been fulfilled in Christ’s unconditional LOVE (Romans 7:6; 2:29; 8:1-10; Matthew 5:17,18; Galatians 3:18-25; 4:4,5; 5:14; John 15:13)

Also, I would go so far as to say that enforcing any part of the Law in this dispensation of Grace is anti-Christ (Romans 3:19-28; Galatians 4:4-6; Galatians 5:18).

Actually the bible NEVER merely refers to homosexuals as being "unclean" or common (see Peters vision of food)...the bible never equates abomination with being unclean through which one can go through a cleansing ceremony.

It was one of those sins under the law for which you were stoned to death if discovered