Who are the Cherubims?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The seraphim are related to cherubim for sure, but I think they are emblematic symbols and not actual being as angels are actual. Again, cherubims/seraphims are redeemed according to Rev 5:9.

I think they are all beings. They don't all have the same function.

As for Rev 5:9 just because they sing along with the elders does not necessarily mean they are redeemed. Cheribums also keep man from entering the garden of Eden. They clearly are living beings of some sort.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think they are all beings. They don't all have the same function.

As for Rev 5:9 just because they sing along with the elders does not necessarily mean they are redeemed. Cheribums also keep man from entering the garden of Eden. They clearly are living beings of some sort.

I agree cherubims were there in Eden. However, I still feel they are symbolic, showing that past this point in the Garden entrance man had dominion over the kingdoms depicted on the faces.... cattle, beasts and fowl. They show earthly creatures, after all.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Noah's ark, that is!

Silly Timmy...

The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant and those in Solomon's Temple are not really "fleshed out" descriptively and the readers can (and has for centuries) insert a lot of their own imagery.

The whole complex area of study here involving the cherubim and other "heavenly creatures" is discussed in a scholarly fashion by Michael Heiser in his work on the "Divine Council." http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

Heiser is a professor of ancient languages at the University of Wisconsin and has been a guest on several of Art Bell's and George Noory's Coast To Coast radio talk show. Professor Heiser is sometimes called the "anti-Zecharia Sitchin."

Sitchin is the author who proclaims that the Annunaki, or the "gods" of the ancient Sumerians, were actually aliens from outer space. A "Christian" adaptation of Sitchin's ideas was developed by Chuck Missler, and UPC pastor Marvin Treece expounded upon this same theme in many of the camp meetings he preached.

Heiser is an antidote to those teachings.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree cherubims were there in Eden. However, I still feel they are symbolic, showing that past this point in the Garden entrance man had dominion over the kingdoms depicted on the faces.... cattle, beasts and fowl. They show earthly creatures, after all.

They might be symbolic of something, but they actual exist. They are called living beings. They, like angel angels, are created beings for God's purpose

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

They might be symbolic of something, but they actual exist. They are called living beings. They, like angel angels, are created beings for God's purpose

If something is symbolic, and really alive, then I would say they are not in the same category as angels at all since angels do not live to be symbols. Like I said, I agree with what John Gill said. But in the sense you note here, yes I guess they would be living creatures. I wonder if they even exist now, though.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

They might be symbolic of something, but they actual exist. They are called living beings. They, like angel angels, are created beings for God's purpose

I take it that Mike is emphasizing the symbolic quality of these beings in the literature of the Bible. I may be wrong, tho.

Even if they appeared in visions, this does not necessarily mean that they are "real" or literal beings which sometimes appear as four separate creatures and then later as a single creature with four different faces.

The morphing and shape shifting quality really does appear to to demand that we at least focus upon the symbolism rather than expect to some day pet them in a zoo.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If something is symbolic, and really alive, then I would say they are not in the same category as angels at all since angels do not live to be symbols. Like I said, I agree with what John Gill said. But in the sense you note here, yes I guess they would be living creatures. I wonder if they even exist now, though.

Like I said the word "angels" seems to be a catchall phrase, not intended to mean they are all the same kinds of beings. I don't see any reason for them not existing. Especially if they can say they have been redeemed?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I take it that Mike is emphasizing the symbolic quality of these beings in the literature of the Bible. I may be wrong, tho.

Even if they appeared in visions, this does not necessarily mean that they are "real" or literal beings which sometimes appear as four separate creatures and then later as a single creature with four different faces.

The morphing and shape shifting quality really does appear to to demand that we at least focus upon the symbolism rather than expect to some day pet them in a zoo.

They are given jobs to perform, like angels. They are given the job of protecting the garden. And they are called Living Beings

[mfblume]

One day I noticed that when we look at Ezekiel 1's description of the placement of the cherubims where they are called LIVING CREATURES, which is synonymous for BEASTS in Revelation, we read they are standing with the human face in the forefront, the lion on the right, ox on left and eagle in behind on the back. This is the same placement as the standards with the same faces around the tabernacle in Num 2.

Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Front = South
Right = East
Left = West
Back = North

[mfblume]

It is also interesting that when the 24 elders see the four beasts worship, they thank God for CREATION.

Rev 4:9-11 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, (10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, (11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.