UPCI Changes

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Don't analyze it??

Amazing isn't?

If i didn't analyze things I still would believe in tithes, 7 yr trib, pretrib rapture, literal city in the sky, streets of gold and three wise men.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Amazing isn't?

If i didn't analyze things I still would believe in tithes, 7 yr trib, pretrib rapture, literal city in the sky, streets of gold and three wise men.

See where questioning got you - messed up your nativity scene!

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

See where questioning got you - messed up your nativity scene!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Amazing isn't?

If i didn't analyze things I still would believe in tithes, 7 yr trib, pretrib rapture, literal city in the sky, streets of gold and three wise men.

.....and I would still believe that tongues is the initial evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, or that what's said at baptism means anything, or that words like "Trinity" and "Oneness" are meaningful at all, or that one verse in the book of Acts is the only verse in the bible that matters!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Amazing isn't?

If i didn't analyze things I still would believe in tithes, 7 yr trib, pretrib rapture, literal city in the sky, streets of gold and three wise men.

You don't believe in Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthasar?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Where do you come up with this stuff? "Agnes Ozman, the elephant in the room"? Her denial of an experience she had doesn't negate the experiences that are written in the Bible nor the experience I had or others when it comes to receiving the Spirit with the sign of tongues.

And yet you haven't been able to give us any proof that your experience of "speaking in other tongues" is the same experience as that described in Acts 2.

Agnes Ozman didn't seem to know what she experienced. It wasn't until she later heard about the celebrity of Azusa Street that she came forward with her own experience.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Amazes me that you are so quick to dismiss the testimony of others because of Agnes Ozman's later denial. And what does your reference to xenolalia have to do with the price of tea in China? The missionaries got it wrong! Tongues is not meant to be used to preach the gospel otherwise Peter and the others in Acts 2 would not have had to explain to the listeners what was going on...this is that...

There is no "elephant in the room"!

Acts 2:4-12. That is "the elephant in the room."

[Rose]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I would agree that the next generation should not change the Bible. However, to say that the current genre of theology known as "Oneness Pentecostalism" in all of its variant forms represents pristine Bible theology is to do both OP theology and the Bible a disservice.

True... but, has anyone actually made that statement?

Maybe it's best for the status quo that nobody really ask any questions about all of our claims. For those who love and seek Truth however, there are a lot of unanswered questions.

Yes, and we must seek truth with an open mind and the aid of the Holy Ghost as guidance. As many times as I have read the Bible through I still find answers... and probably will continue to do so until JESUS calls me home. Bible studies, prayer, questions, discussions, debates, etc. are what helps us grow in knowledge and truth.

To take one statement out of a whole sermon can be interpreted several different ways and has been proven by this thread... I'm just saying.

God Bless!

[allstate1]

I have a question!! What about all the people that lived in the 18th and 19th century in America??? Are they lost?? Why, if tongues are essential to salvation, do we not hear of it until 1900????

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I would agree that the next generation should not change the Bible. However, to say that the current genre of theology known as "Oneness Pentecostalism" in all of its variant forms represents pristine Bible theology is to do both OP theology and the Bible a disservice.

Originally Posted by Rose

True... but, has anyone actually made that statement?

Yes, that's the statement that we're discussing in this thread. Bro. Osborn said that the current set of doctrines should not be questioned and should not be analyzed. His supporters in this thread have said repeatedly that his comments were intended to be for the Bible and not OP doctrine. Either way, what Bro. Osborn was defending and demanding that no one question was simply NOT the "pristine" teaching of the NT apostles.

Originally Posted by Rose

Yes, and we must seek truth with an open mind and the aid of the Holy Ghost as guidance. As many times as I have read the Bible through I still find answers... and probably will continue to do so until JESUS calls me home. Bible studies, prayer, questions, discussions, debates, etc. are what helps us grow in knowledge and truth.

To take one statement out of a whole sermon can be interpreted several different ways and has been proven by this thread... I'm just saying.

God Bless!

The current ire that you see in this thread toward that "one statement" is generally caused by the fact that this "one statement" resonates with so much that so many of us have been told over the years. I could give many examples:

I remember at the very first UPC Festival of Evangelism back around 1982 or so that someone from the audience asked NA Urshan (then the GS) about several statements that had been made from the pulpit that seemed to discourage young ministers seeking degrees in theology and college education in general.

Ever the nimble politician, Bro. Urshan endorsed the statements that had been made, but in a public "aside" to the questioner he said, "...But I know what you're talking about... I know what you're talking about..."

We have always been discouraged from asking questions and seeking answers. No one in "officialdom" has ever appreciated any of us "looking under the hood." This recent statement just echoes all of the past stuff and brings up a lot of ill feelings in my gut.

So far, all attempts at getting a copy of the complete sermon have come up empty handed. That seems odd for a district wide Mens' Retreat. Usually they're already selling the CDs even while the altar call is still going on.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by allstate1

I have a question!! What about all the people that lived in the 18th and 19th century in America??? Are they lost?? Why, if tongues are essential to salvation, do we not hear of it until 1900????

There were many reports of this throughout history - "glossolalia," "xenolalia" (foreign languages as in Acts 2) and many vague references to "ecstatic utterances" and such. The thing is, these reports appear along side other reports among non-Christian sects and religions exhibiting their own "speaking in tongues" phenomena.

You are correct about the dearth of such reports in the time period that you have cited - but I don't think the reports are absent entirely.

In any event - why has absolutely no Christian in history ever suggested that this was the defacto standard of salvation until the development of the Oneness Pentecostal "Three Step" or "Water & Spirit" doctrine?

Your question is a valid one.