Are Trinitarians Saved?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The truth is that you will not find one instance in which the baptizer said the words, "...in the name of Jesus Christ", or, "...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Ananias didn't offer to baptize Paul under a liturgical or sacramental formula be it Oneness or Trinitarian. Ananias told Paul to be baptized, calling upon the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16). It was Paul, the one being baptized, that was to call on the name... not the baptizer.

So in this regard both Trinitarians and Oneness Christians are wrong, because they sacramentalize baptism instead of making it the moment the believer calls on the name. If you think you're saved by what a man utters over you... you might as well be Catholic.

Indeed. It's missing the point entirely if one reduces the "calling on the Lord" down to a preacher's verbal formula.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I still say that the most important part of baptism is in who's authority the baptism is being done in, not the actual words spoken.

I can relate to that.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sam

We Apostolics don't even agree among ourselves on what to say during the baptism ritual.

The problem is, we think of it as a ritual. It's a moment of prayer and an act of faith on behalf of the believer being baptized. They are to call on the name (as in Paul's case Acts 22:16) not the baptizer.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It doesn't matter what a man says over you if you're truly calling on the name of Jesus in prayer for salvation.

I would not go that far. There should be no question to those who witness the initiation rite, that it is Christ Jesus who is the Saviour and who is being followed.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I would not go that far. There should be no question to those who witness the initiation rite, that it is Christ Jesus who is the Saviour and who is being followed.

That's because you see it as a "rite". Biblically, it's the moment of prayer and conversion. Ananias didn't call on the name of Jesus at Paul's baptism... Paul was told to.

We're sacramentalizing just like the Trinitarians. Both Oneness and Trinitarian Christians are doing violence to biblical baptism. This is where the "Kingdom of God" comes in. Those who called on the name of Jesus at their baptism (regardless as to what was uttered over them by some well intentioned priest or preacher) have had their sins remitted. Those who relied on the words of a priest or preacher only got wet, and are dead where they stand.

[SOUNWORTHY]

This is Apostolic friends so it really doesn't matter what you believe. God is a loving God so no one is going to be lost. Believe what you like, do whatever you like God is going to meet you at the heavenly gate with open arms and tell you to leave your drink and cigar outside and come on in it's party time.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

This is Apostolic friends so it really doesn't matter what you believe. God is a loving God so no one is going to be lost. Believe what you like, do whatever you like God is going to meet you at the heavenly gate with open arms and tell you to leave your drink and cigar outside and come on in it's party time.

Do you think a discussion of the nature of God is comparable to drunkenness as a vice?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's because you see it as a "rite". Biblically, it's the moment of prayer and conversion. Ananias didn't call on the name of Jesus at Paul's baptism... Paul was told to.

We're sacramentalizing just like the Trinitarians. Both Oneness and Trinitarian Christians are doing violence to biblical baptism. This is where the "Kingdom of God" comes in. Those who called on the name of Jesus at their baptism (regardless as to what was uttered over them by some well intentioned priest or preacher) have had their sins remitted. Those who relied on the words of a priest or preacher only got wet, and are dead where they stand.

No I don't see "calling on the Lord" as a rite in it'self, I was referring to the baptismal ceremony in particular.

The ceremony is sacred and should not be approached haphazardly. Baptism is for those who have already believed in, and received Christ and experienced the salvation of the Lord. I don't see baptism as the initial conversion or "calling on the Lord" yet it publicizes what has occurred internally and it makes good sense that the name be proclaimed at the event.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

This is Apostolic friends so it really doesn't matter what you believe. God is a loving God so no one is going to be lost. Believe what you like, do whatever you like God is going to meet you at the heavenly gate with open arms and tell you to leave your drink and cigar outside and come on in it's party time.

Seeing that we have not received "cigar salvation" can we then be condemned by the same?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Good grief. __________________
"Television was our chief tool in selling our product." ~William F. LaPorte, quote about Preparation H.

Pelathais is right, and that's why Pelathais brushes his teeth with it?