How many times did you ask God for the Holy Ghost?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Mike,
What's the context of Acts 5. Civil disobedience. They respond saying obeying God is more important than obeying man. He basically called the Pharisees disobedient... when they heard this they were ready to kill Peter and Co.

I do not think that is the context of the obedience in regards to the Spirit. Peter just preached the gospel. Reminds me of the steps Peter mentioned in Acts 2:38 preceding the reference to Holy Ghost baptism.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Believing, repenting, and being baptized is obeying.

Right! That is repeated and repeated in Acts. It is what Peter would tell Cornelius TO DO, and that does not mean baptism must be done BEFORE Spirit baptism comes, though, since that did not occur in Acts 10 in that order. But the point is OBEY THE GOSPEL. And it is more than ASKING for the Spirit.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Right! That is repeated and repeated in Acts. It is what Peter would tell Cornelius TO DO, and that does not mean baptism must be done BEFORE Spirit baptism comes, though, since that did not occur in Acts 10 in that order. But the point is OBEY THE GOSPEL. And it is more than ASKING for the Spirit.

Obey the Gospel? Huh?

You call 3-steps the Gospel?

Maybe we should go back and define what this common word, used in a distinct way by the Early church, "Gospel," really was.

Commands to be obeyed???

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not think that is the context of the obedience in regards to the Spirit. Peter just preached the gospel. Reminds me of the steps Peter mentioned in Acts 2:38 preceding the reference to Holy Ghost baptism.

Honestly, Mike?

It's in the immediate context of the story. Look at it for yourself.

You may continue to argue in others areas of these stories, but this one is right here!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Obey the Gospel? Huh?

You call 3-steps the Gospel?

No.

Maybe we should go back and define what this common word, used in a distinct way by the Early church, "Gospel," really was.

I know what it was.

Commands to be obeyed???

No. lol

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection. You OBEY THE GOSPEL by Acts 2:38. Acts 2:38 is obedience to the gospel, not the gospel. How do you obey the news about death, burial and resurrection? The jews heard the gospel and asked what to do about it. How is that to be obeyed? Peter told them what to do. That was the obedience required.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Honestly, Mike?

It's in the immediate context of the story. Look at it for yourself.

You may continue to argue in others areas of these stories, but this one is right here!

You are misapplying the subject of the obedience. The actual context shows OBEDIENCE TO MEN OR OBEDIENCE TO GOD limited to Peter's situation. He was not directing his words to the Jews as though they disbelieved, though we both know that was true. It was not Peter's point, though. It is not reflecting on the Jews who did not believe, but on whether or not Peter and John would obey God rather than men. Peter was simply saying I must continue to believe as I have, for the Spirit which is given to those who obey the Lord, and has done these wonders amongst us, will continue to do wonders if we continue to obey God and not you Jews.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Right! That is repeated and repeated in Acts. It is what Peter would tell Cornelius TO DO, and that does not mean baptism must be done BEFORE Spirit baptism comes, though, since that did not occur in Acts 10 in that order. But the point is OBEY THE GOSPEL. And it is more than ASKING for the Spirit.

Obeying the gospel has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Ghost. Obeying the gospel is repentance and baptism. Receiving the Holy Ghost is not a command to be obeyed but a gift that God has promised to those that obey the gospel.

So the question is: should we procede to ask God for that which he has promised us? Personally, I see nothing wrong with asking a few times. However, when someone begs and pleads with God for something that God has promised to give, that either shows a lack of faith that God might not fulfill his promise or it brings doubt to the person that "maybe I didn't really obey; that maybe I didn't really repent."

All that isn't my main point though. I don't think begging for the Holy Ghost is where Pentecostalism has went wrong. I think it is a symptom of the problem but not the problem itself. I think the problem with Pentecostalism is that it emphasizes the Holy Ghost as something that we must do. The Holy Ghost is not anything we must do. It is a gift that God gives. So just because someone doesn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost immedietly doesn't necessarily mean that they are doing something wrong. All it means is that God had decided not to give them the promise just yet. Even if they haven't received it 20 years later doesn't mean that have done something wrong. All it means is that God has not given it yet. Even if they haven't received it by the time they die doesn't mean they did something wrong. All it means is that God has not given it yet and we know that not even death can keep God from keeping his promises!

The only other issue is whether tongues are THE initial evidence of the Holy Ghost...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Obeying the gospel has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Ghost. Obeying the gospel is repentance and baptism. Receiving the Holy Ghost is not a command to be obeyed but a gift that God has promised to those that obey the gospel.

Strawman. I never said receiving the Holy Ghost is a command. I said that obedience to the Gospel causes God to give us the Holy Ghost. We REPENT, GET BAPTIZED and GOD GIVES the Spirit.

So the question is: should we procede to ask God for that which he has promised us?

Yes!

Luk 11:13 KJV If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with asking a few times. However, when someone begs and pleads with God for something that God has promised to give, that either shows a lack of faith that God might not fulfill his promise or it brings doubt to the person that "maybe I didn't really obey; that maybe I didn't really repent."

Or it means the person is stubborn and refuses to repent over sin they are not willing to repent over, and thinks God does not see that. That is what happened to me.

All that isn't my main point though. I don't think begging for the Holy Ghost is where Pentecostalism has went wrong. I think it is a symptom of the problem but not the problem itself. I think the problem with Pentecostalism is that it emphasizes the Holy Ghost as something that we must do.

I agree. It is not something we must do. How can we give ourselves the Holy Ghost?

The Holy Ghost is not anything we must do. It is a gift that God gives. So just because someone doesn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost immedietly doesn't necessarily mean that they are doing something wrong.

Agreed. But it could be, but not in every case.

All it means is that God had decided not to give them the promise just yet. Even if they haven't received it 20 years later doesn't mean that have done something wrong. All it means is that God has not given it yet.

I disagree with that overview, since the Holy Ghost was already poured out into the world. We just need to obey in order to get it. God is always ready to give it if we simply ask and obey.

Even if they haven't received it by the time they die doesn't mean they did something wrong.

In some cases, I agree, but not all.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Strawman. I never said receiving the Holy Ghost is a command. I said that obedience to the Gospel causes God to give us the Holy Ghost. We REPENT, GET BAPTIZED and GOD GIVES the Spirit.

Yes!

Luk 11:13 KJV If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Or it means the person is stubborn and refuses to repent over sin they are not willing to repent over, and thinks God does not see that. That is what happened to me.

I agree. It is not something we must do. How can we give ourselves the Holy Ghost?

Agreed. But it could be, but not in every case.

I disagree with that overview, since the Holy Ghost was already poured out into the world. We just need to obey in order to get it. God is always ready to give it if we simply ask and obey.

In some cases, I agree, but not all.

Just wanted to let you know that you have now been listed in the Guinness Book of World Records for irresponsibly using the word "Strawman" in arguments in which you really can't give a good response, as well as overall usage of the word. Congratulations!!!

Is this the only thing you can say when disagree? I think I'm gonna do a search and see how many times you've used it.

And I'm still waiting for that verse.

[notofworks]

Ok, I did a search and it's too many to count. The name "Mfblume" repeatedly came up! But the last 3 people to use it are you, Prax, and EB. Great company!!