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07-15-2010, 12:23 PM
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
This only works if we are defining God as a human "being".
Seems we can say it two ways...
One Human being who was also God, though God also existed beyond this mode.
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One God defined as a "being" who existed in simultaneous modes.
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How can God be confined to a human being at all?
The simultaneous modes is quite mysterious, and I think it's as plausible as other theories about the godhead.
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07-15-2010, 12:23 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
Who is Christ apart from the incarnation? The Father? So did you mean "the willingness of the Father to take upon himself these limitations of humanity?"
How was the Logos involved with Creation prior to the incarnation?
If Christ is fully God, did he truly have the full limitations of humanity??
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Apart from the incarnation Christ was God - the same essence as the Father.
The willingness of God to take upon himself... The term "Father" arises out of the incarnation.
Involved through the deity He shared with the Father - certainly not as a separate being.
I don't think I said FULL limitations...
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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07-15-2010, 12:24 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
How can God be confined to a human being at all?
The simultaneous modes is quite mysterious, and I think it's as plausible as other theories about the godhead.
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Who said confined?
IMO the terms persons and beings are inadequate in Godhead discussions - especially by current definitions.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Last edited by Hoovie; 07-15-2010 at 12:28 PM.
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07-15-2010, 12:29 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
This only works if we are defining God as a human "being".
Seems we can say it two ways...
One Human being who was also God, though God also existed beyond this mode.
Or
One God defined as a "being" who existed in simultaneous modes.
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If people can compartmentalize the topic then it's easier to see.
God is a person, like you and I, in that He is a rational, thinking, intelligent being, yet of much much more "power" than us.
God though, as a person, has a Divine nature. It's at the incarnation that Person picked up a human nature too and became in practical terms, a human being.
The one Divine Spirit that makes the Father "Divine" unifies both so that the Son is not separated from the Father. We can use the terms modes or manifestations or forms
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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07-15-2010, 12:32 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
If people can compartmentalize the topic then it's easier to see.
God is a person, like you and I, in that He is a rational, thinking, intelligent being, yet of much much more "power" than us.
God though, as a person, has a Divine nature. It's at the incarnation that Person picked up a human nature too and became in practical terms, a human being.
The one Divine Spirit that makes the Father "Divine" unifies both so that the Son is not separated from the Father. We can use the terms modes or manifestations or forms
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So if we acknowledge two beings it's important to note we are dealing with two definitions of the word, right?
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Last edited by Hoovie; 07-15-2010 at 12:34 PM.
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07-15-2010, 12:35 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: In a city near you
Posts: 1,056
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
Apart from the incarnation Christ was God - the same essence as the Father.
The willingness of God to take upon himself... The term "Father" arises out of the incarnation.
Involved through the deity He shared with the Father - certainly not as a separate being.
I don't think I said FULL limitations...
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What you're saying here makes some sense for me.
However, the distinctiveness and apparent spatially separateness confuses the matter. If Christ is really God the Father in the incarnation, then how can the Son, which is really the Almighty in a flesh body, be fully human?
And the whole idea of the Son appealing to the Father in speech seems rather odd, if the Son is not just unified with the Father, but is literally the Father. Why the emphasis by NT writers to make these distinctions?
Also, Did the Jews believe the Messiah would be God Himself? Does the OT prophesy a Suffering Servant or...
Ahhh... why'd I start in on this thread. It's out my league. I've been in this knee deep, even taught on godhead on many occassions, but have never settled the matter... .and I feel like it's such an open topic.
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07-15-2010, 12:36 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: In a city near you
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
Who said confined?
IMO the terms persons and beings are inadequate in Godhead discussions - especially by current definitions.
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How did God "become" a human?
If he only "put on humanity" then was he fully human? And if he only "wore humanity" why do we not agree with Divine Flesh teachers?
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07-15-2010, 12:37 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,451
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
I didn't say you described Divine Flesh (at least not your intent), but based on your response, I can understand how people make that logical leap.
The son is a real man. But you also believe the Son is fully God. Correct as they are interwined togethor.
This fleshly birth in Bethlehem, the expression of God, he is not spatially apart from God? He is "sent?" How is the Father "a part of him" when it sounds like he is "apart from him?"
He was sent as all men are sent into the World.
The Father moved him to speak? So Jesus was a man moved on by God? I thought Jesus was also fully God?
uh yes... he has obdience this man was a real man in perfect communion with God as part of his nature. to hear and learn and do. Yet the very God in him does which is part of his being speaks and the Son does because of the communion of love.
I'm not suggesting you or anyone believe in two gods, divine flesh, etc... I'm asking questions. Godhead in one sense is beautiful, and in another, is messy and confusing.
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I can see in part it can be. Once you have a understanding of certain aspects and that The ONE GOD expressed his image and being into a child and that child was authentic in existance as a normal person who could say. I go unto my God and your God yet say, I AM he and many other sayings... you simply have a ONENESS of being of a authentic man who is God's unique Son and the Eternal God. Think about a man that knowledge is limited but yet hear and breath the divine revelation of God when the Father speaks and he speaks as his perfected mouthpiece. To be one in such a way is to truly be perfected. A Man that can feel the perfect love of God beyond measure and also know the depth of all creation. One Day we shall be like him.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one,45 himself God, who is in closest fellowship with46 the Father, has made God47 known.48
Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-15-2010 at 12:43 PM.
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07-15-2010, 12:38 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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1 Person or 3?
Zec 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
Zec 14:10 The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses.
NET Zec 14:9 The Lord will then be king over all the earth. In that day the Lord will be seen as one with a single name.
BTW in the bible "name" or "names" are used to signify person. A name often spoke of a person's character etc. For example the Son is named Jesus, because he will save his people from their sin. So when you said the name "Jesus" you were referring to a person.
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples and said, (the number of names together was about a hundred and twenty,)
Php 4:3 And I also beg you, true yoke-fellow, help those women who labored in the gospel with me and with Clement, and others of my fellow-laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life.
Rev 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments. And they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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07-15-2010, 12:41 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Re: Godhead Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
So if we acknowledge two beings it's important to note we are dealing with two definitions of the word, right?
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A being is generally anything that exists and how. Rocks are beings or have being, but they are not living beings.
A living being or being how we are using it, is a person and how that person exists or lives...God in His Deity is Spirit. God through the incarnation is flesh
There is one person who simultaneously is both Father (God in His Deity) and Son (God and His Deity incarnate)
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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