Allow me to Think Abstractly for a Moment

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Just a note or two on the excellent posts made so far.

First, speaking in other languages, languages that are unknown to the speaker but not necessarily unknown to the hearers, is a sign not to the believers, but to the unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 14:22)

Second, speaking in other languages as it was manifested on the day of Pentecost, the language spoken by a believer who received the power of the Holy Ghost must be that of another human tongue, and not a special heavenly or a 'prayer' language. (Acts 2:6-12) That is considered babbling and a 'sign' that might well run a non-believer off. (1 Corinthians 14:23)

Third, the languages spoken were not 'unknown', as frequently translated into our English Bibles. The Greek words for 'unknown' are never associated with speaking with other tongues (languages). The English word, unknown', was added for clarification only, assuming that the languages spoken by the believers were 'unknown' to the speakers but not to those who heard them and/or identify the languages. So, we confuse the speaking in a prayer language with the sign gift of speaking in other human languages and even use the speaking in tongues as a sign to other believers that we are 'praying in the Spirit', while completely disregarding Paul's instruction on who, where, how, and why the "unknown tongues' are to be administered (1 Cor 14).

As a result, we have at least three modern-day apostolic doctrines that clearly differ from the historic apostolic records.

Excellent thoughts as always, youngster.

[Nperscomp]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Just a note or two on the excellent posts made so far.

First, speaking in other languages, languages that are unknown to the speaker but not necessarily unknown to the hearers, is a sign not to the believers, but to the unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 14:22)

Second, speaking in other languages as it was manifested on the day of Pentecost, the language spoken by a believer who received the power of the Holy Ghost must be that of another human tongue, and not a special heavenly or a 'prayer' language. (Acts 2:6-12) That is considered babbling and a 'sign' that might well run a non-believer off. (1 Corinthians 14:23)

Third, the languages spoken were not 'unknown', as frequently translated into our English Bibles. The Greek words for 'unknown' are never associated with speaking with other tongues (languages). The English word, unknown', was added for clarification only, assuming that the languages spoken by the believers were 'unknown' to the speakers but not to those who heard them and/or identify the languages. So, we confuse the speaking in a prayer language with the sign gift of speaking in other human languages and even use the speaking in tongues as a sign to other believers that we are 'praying in the Spirit', while completely disregarding Paul's instruction on who, where, how, and why the "unknown tongues' are to be administered (1 Cor 14).

As a result, we have at least three modern-day apostolic doctrines that clearly differ from the historic apostolic records.

I do like your point of 1 Corinthians 14:22. However, I have a question that may be off subject. When you read further down to 1 cor 14:23, it seems contradictory. So, why would he say that speaking in tongues is a sign for the unbelievers, however, they will think you are crazy? I am trying to understand it and can only get a few outcomes.

1) It is just a SIGN to the unbelievers, they can still think we are crazy if they hear it though. Which leaves me to wonder, what type of sign is he meaning?
2) He is talking about what happened in Acts 2. Some of the witnesses that were unbelievers of Christ thought the people speaking in other languages were drunk.
3) He is contradicting himself.

Ha. I feel like I am missing the big picture on this. What are your thoughts?

[A.W. Bowman]

I see your point! And, no, it is not 'off subject'.

You fell into the same trap that we all seem prone to find and step into. It is something I have to guard against continually, i.e. not reading the passage is written and in the context of the subject matter.

The verse 23 reads:If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Within the context of chapter 14, Paul is making two points. The first is that everything is to be done in order and decency. The second point is that if everyone is speaking in a different language, with no interpretations, consider the noise and confusion that would ensue. Say a congregation of 25 people speaking in 5 to 25 different languages - all at the same time!

We can then see Paul's instructions in this light: Regardless of the language being spoken (known human language or a message from the Spirit in a 'heavenly' language). If presented one at a time, with interpretation, then God is glorified and the unbeliever, or the one who is unlearned [in spiritual matters], might be then convicted of the reality of Jesus Christ.

Did this help?

[Sister Alvear]

I don't think tongues is the HG....it is evidence of the HG...The HG is Christ in us....

[Nperscomp]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

I see your point! And, no, it is not 'off subject'.

You fell into the same trap that we all seem prone to find and step into. It is something I have to guard against continually, i.e. not reading the passage is written and in the context of the subject matter.

The verse 23 reads:If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Within the context of chapter 14, Paul is making two points. The first is that everything is to be done in order and decency. The second point is that if everyone is speaking in a different language, with no interpretations, consider the noise and confusion that would ensue. Say a congregation of 25 people speaking in 5 to 25 different languages - all at the same time!

We can then see Paul's instructions in this light: Regardless of the language being spoken (known human language or a message from the Spirit in a 'heavenly' language). If presented one at a time, with interpretation, then God is glorified and the unbeliever, or the one who is unlearned [in spiritual matters], might be then convicted of the reality of Jesus Christ.

Did this help?

Perfect sense to me. Yes, I knew I wasn't seeing something that was right in front of me. So yes, If "all" are speaking in tongues, that would go against what he is teaching in 27 of them speaking one at a time. Yes, someone as an unbeliever, would think they are all crazy, and therefore God would not be glofied! Thank you for showing me this!

[jagwinn]

I was blessed this past week by attending the National Deaf Evangelism Conference in Indianapolis!

To hear Deaf saints speaking in tongues, speaking a language they did not know, was awesome.
92 Deaf were there, 6 Deaf preachers and 205 people with a burden for Deaf ministry. God is real, God is good!

On an aside, when I pray or praise the LORD, tongues comes upon me when words fail to express my heart. The Holy Ghost praying in groanings and tears that which He, knowing the heart, knows of what I should pray.

Tongues to me is awesome, and if you agree or disagree makes no difference to my testimony.

.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by jagwinn

I was blessed this past week by attending the National Deaf Evangelism Conference in Indianapolis!

To hear Deaf saints speaking in tongues, speaking a language they did not know, was awesome.
92 Deaf were there, 6 Deaf preachers and 205 people with a burden for Deaf ministry. God is real, God is good!

On an aside, when I pray or praise the LORD, tongues comes upon me when words fail to express my heart. The Holy Ghost praying in groanings and tears that which He, knowing the heart, knows of what I should pray.

Tongues to me is awesome, and if you agree or disagree makes no difference to my testimony.

.

You must have misunderstood - no one is saying tongues is not awesome.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Hebrews 11
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

We're all very familiar with this scripture.

So, with that said, why do we feel there has to be evidence or initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost?

Because Acts 10:45-46 said there was.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Nperscomp

Perfect sense to me. Yes, I knew I wasn't seeing something that was right in front of me. So yes, If "all" are speaking in tongues, that would go against what he is teaching in 27 of them speaking one at a time. Yes, someone as an unbeliever, would think they are all crazy, and therefore God would not be glofied! Thank you for showing me this!

You are most welcome.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

I see your point! And, no, it is not 'off subject'.

You fell into the same trap that we all seem prone to find and step into. It is something I have to guard against continually, i.e. not reading the passage is written and in the context of the subject matter.

The verse 23 reads:If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Within the context of chapter 14, Paul is making two points. The first is that everything is to be done in order and decency. The second point is that if everyone is speaking in a different language, with no interpretations, consider the noise and confusion that would ensue. Say a congregation of 25 people speaking in 5 to 25 different languages - all at the same time!

We can then see Paul's instructions in this light: Regardless of the language being spoken (known human language or a message from the Spirit in a 'heavenly' language). If presented one at a time, with interpretation, then God is glorified and the unbeliever, or the one who is unlearned [in spiritual matters], might be then convicted of the reality of Jesus Christ.

Did this help?

Excellent!!!!!