UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!

[OilCityCajun]

Originally Posted by DAII

Are you giving Dave Wasmundt royalties for using Neo-Pharisee?

I'd never heard of him till your post. I sincerely thought I had coined a phrase. Just goes to show that the bible is true. There is nothing new under the sun.

Originally Posted by DAII

The standards you speak of are very much man-made doctrines.

The way I understand the scriptures there is nothing wrong with man made "doctrines". The problem comes in when they are presented as the Law of God. If they are presented as man-made, and given a reasonable explanation of why that man made them, I think they are totally acceptable. The aforementioned problem is made even worse when those who make or repeat them refuse to hold themselves to the same standard. I've sat under 4 pastors in my life. To the best of my knowledge, Pastor Rhoads is the first one I have ever heard say, " I dont believe x will send you to hell, but I preach against it for this reason. <explanation follows> There is nothing cut and dried in the bible against it, but here is the principle on which I base it, which is in the bible. This is not the commandment of God, but as the shepherd of this local flock, it is a rule I set for this flock." And having known Pastor Rhoads for many years, his wife all my life, and his children all of theirs, I can testify that they do indeed practice what he preaches.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

I'd never heard of him till your post. I sincerely thought I had coined a phrase. Just goes to show that the bible is true. There is nothing new under the sun.

The way I understand the scriptures there is nothing wrong with man made "doctrines". The problem comes in when they are presented as the Law of God. If they are presented as man-made, and given a reasonable explanation of why that man made them, I think they are totally acceptable. The aforementioned problem is made even worse when those who make or repeat them refuse to hold themselves to the same standard. I've sat under 4 pastors in my life. To the best of my knowledge, Pastor Rhoads is the first one I have ever heard say, " I dont believe x will send you to hell, but I preach against it for this reason. <explanation follows> There is nothing cut and dried in the bible against it, but here is the principle on which I base it, which is in the bible. This is not the commandment of God, but as the shepherd of this local flock, it is a rule I set for this flock." And having known Pastor Rhoads for many years, his wife all my life, and his children all of theirs, I can testify that they do indeed practice what he preaches.

1) I find it kinda funny to say the scriptures support man-made doctrines

2) I'd like to see where the scriptures do this

3) what if a saint refuses to do X because man made it and not God?

4) where does the bible say a Pastor can set rules for that flock?

[tv1a]

Man made doctrines are selective. Since they are subjective, they are subject to interpretation. Interpretation is rarely based on an absolute. More often than not, interpretation is based a desired predetermined outcome. A great example is the television/internet doctrine. The same principles which apply television should aslo apply to the internet. All we hear from that crowd is the same old "Yeah Butt"... Can't effectively win that one if the rules change in the middle of the argument. One loses all credibility.

Just so anyone doesn't think I'm picking on legalists, I have the same problem with my pro-life/death penalty views. I have not been able to reconcile the fact I value certain human lives over others depending on the circumstances. My principles do not line up.

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

I'd never heard of him till your post. I sincerely thought I had coined a phrase. Just goes to show that the bible is true. There is nothing new under the sun.

The way I understand the scriptures there is nothing wrong with man made "doctrines". The problem comes in when they are presented as the Law of God. If they are presented as man-made, and given a reasonable explanation of why that man made them, I think they are totally acceptable. The aforementioned problem is made even worse when those who make or repeat them refuse to hold themselves to the same standard. I've sat under 4 pastors in my life. To the best of my knowledge, Pastor Rhoads is the first one I have ever heard say, " I dont believe x will send you to hell, but I preach against it for this reason. <explanation follows> There is nothing cut and dried in the bible against it, but here is the principle on which I base it, which is in the bible. This is not the commandment of God, but as the shepherd of this local flock, it is a rule I set for this flock." And having known Pastor Rhoads for many years, his wife all my life, and his children all of theirs, I can testify that they do indeed practice what he preaches.

[OilCityCajun]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

1) I find it kinda funny to say the scriptures support man-made doctrines

2) I'd like to see where the scriptures do this

3) what if a saint refuses to do X because man made it and not God?

4) where does the bible say a Pastor can set rules for that flock?

"Obey them that have rule over you, for they watch for your soul"
"He that receives me, receives he that sent me"
"And such like"
"Feed my sheep"
"Whatsoever you bind on Earth..."

[OilCityCajun]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

1) I find it kinda funny to say the scriptures support man-made doctrines...

Allow me to offer a couple of examples. There is nothing in the bible which strictly forbids alcholol, but there is much against drunkeness and for sobriety and there was no fermentation (gall) found in the mouth of our perfect example, Christ.

There is nothing in the bible against beards, but there is plenty against the spirit of rebellion, and the standards against facial hair on men was a direct response to the hippy movement adopting the unshaven look as their uniform of rebellion. Originally, it wasnt the beard, itself, that was preached against, so much as the rebellious spirit it symbolized.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

"Obey them that have rule over you, for they watch for your soul"
"He that receives me, receives he that sent me"
"And such like"
"Feed my sheep"
"Whatsoever you bind on Earth..."

Still waiting for the verses that say we can invent man made doctrine and saints have to follow them

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

Allow me to offer a couple of examples. There is nothing in the bible which strictly forbids alcholol, but there is much against drunkeness and for sobriety and there was no fermentation (gall) found in the mouth of our perfect example, Christ.

There is nothing in the bible against beards, but there is plenty against the spirit of rebellion, and the standards against facial hair on men was a direct response to the hippy movement adopting the unshaven look as their uniform of rebellion. Originally, it wasnt the beard, itself, that was preached against, so much as the rebellious spirit it symbolized.

On a technical and perhaps minor point, "gall" isn't "fermentation." It can be a variety of very bitter tasting substances made from plants like wormwood and hemlock. Some have thought that the presence of the bitter taste of "gall" in the vinegar offered to Jesus on the cross was something with a narcotic or analgesic effect and He refused it for those reasons.

Poppy oil and the bark of willow trees both taste very bitter and were used by ancient people to relieve pain. Willow bark is the source of aspirin.

The whole "hippy" beard thing overlooks the prohibitions against facial hair that predated even WW2. The original impetus behind the "clean shaved face" was a desire to disassociate Pentecost - not from "the world" - but from the whole "hill billy" and "other side of the tracks" thing.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

Allow me to offer a couple of examples. There is nothing in the bible which strictly forbids alcholol, but there is much against drunkeness and for sobriety and there was no fermentation (gall) found in the mouth of our perfect example, Christ.

There is nothing in the bible against beards, but there is plenty against the spirit of rebellion, and the standards against facial hair on men was a direct response to the hippy movement adopting the unshaven look as their uniform of rebellion. Originally, it wasnt the beard, itself, that was preached against, so much as the rebellious spirit it symbolized.

There is much in the bible against drunkeness, we don't need a rule against drinking alcohol, least one that will ........ you to hell or get you kicked out of a church. Such rules should be guidelines only

Jesus drank alcohol. He drank wine like all Jews did

No Beards as a rule pre-dated the hippie movement. Beards predate the hippie movement. Therefore it's not rebellion to have a beard. Beards are not "rebellion"...rebellion is rebellion.

The bible does not support those rules

[OilCityCajun]

Show me one that says the ministry doesnt have authority to lead the flock

[OilCityCajun]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Still waiting for the verses that say we can invent man made doctrine and saints have to follow them

Perhaps you can explain to me what, exactly, Christ meant in Matthew 16:19 and 18:18.