Prop 8 overruled by gay judge!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Let's see, should we vote for modesty and come up with a way to define that?

Hmm... I never considered modesty on the level with non-homosexuality before. Sorta think there's a vast difference in degree of evil, don't you think? I mean, did God ever destroy a nation due to immodesty?

Vote for no indecent programming on the internet or television? Vote for outlawing fornication? Vote for making adultery a capital offense? Vote for the stoning of alcoholics and drug addicts? How far should we go with this?

That is not the reasoning to take. The reasoning is that, of all things, homosexuality brought a judgment on a kingdom.

And you never answered my question. Are we to vote YES to homosexuality?

The fact is that sometimes Christians ought to use their rights to influence a kingdom. Paul had to minister for the Lord, and was in danger of being hindered. He relied on his Roman citizenhsip to avoid that.

Act 22:24-29 KJV The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him. (25) And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned? (26) When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman. (27) Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea. (28) And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born. (29) Then straightway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.

We have rights, and we ought to use them for the sake of God's kingdom.

Banning homosexual marriage is not the same as banning immodesty. People can do what they want without having a law passed to marry homosexuals.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hmm... I never considered modesty on the level with non-homosexuality before. Sorta think there's a vast difference in degree of evil, don't you think? I mean, did God ever destroy a nation due to immodesty?



That is not the reasoning to take. The reasoning is that, of all things, homosexuality brought a judgment on a kingdom.

And you never answered my question. Are we to vote YES to homosexuality?

The fact is that sometimes Christians ought to use their rights to influence a kingdom. Paul had to minister for the Lord, and was in danger of being hindered. He relied on his Roman citizenhsip to avoid that.

Act 22:24-29 KJV The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him. (25) And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned? (26) When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman. (27) Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea. (28) And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born. (29) Then straightway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.

We have rights, and we ought to use them for the sake of God's kingdom.

Banning homosexual marriage is not the same as banning immodesty. People can do what they want without having a law passed to marry homosexuals.

Actually, Mike, I did answer your question. You may have not liked my answer, but I did respond! Voting for something on a legal basis is not the same as condoning the action morally. I would not think of the Fed Govt punishing adultery, nor does that mean I condone adultery.

Further, I think you are stretching the reason for God's judgement when you say he condemned an entire city just because of sodomy.

Use my rights for the sake of the Kingdom? How does that "advance the Kingdom" one iota? Advancing the Kingdom would occur regardless of political landscape, and the problem is not gay marriage, the problem is sin and rebellion to God. Sharing Grace as a way people can live an abundant life in harmony with God is how we advance the Gospel. Let's not confuse the two and become politcal crusaders thinking we are doing something for the Kingdom -- unless, of course, you are promoting justice to the poor, widows, oppressed.

If you, as a citizen of this country, wish to vote against same-sex marriage, I understand that, respect that and will even consider voting with you. But all in perspective.

Oh... and modesty was just one of several immoral offenses I listed, but you seem stuck on that one.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Actually, Mike, I did answer your question. You may have not liked my answer, but I did respond! Voting for something on a legal basis is not the same as condoning the action morally.

So does that mean you would vote YES for gay marriage? I did not see a plain yes or no.

I would not think of the Fed Govt punishing adultery, nor does that mean I condone adultery.

Further, I think you are stretching the reason for God's judgement when you say he condemned an entire city just because of sodomy.

Use my rights for the sake of the Kingdom? How does that "advance the Kingdom" one iota?

It keeps the nation in which we live free from destruction, for one!

Advancing the Kingdom would occur regardless of political landscape, and the problem is not gay marriage, the problem is sin and rebellion to God. Sharing Grace as a way people can live an abundant life in harmony with God is how we advance the Gospel. Let's not confuse the two and become politcal crusaders thinking we are doing something for the Kingdom -- unless, of course, you are promoting justice to the poor, widows, oppressed.

If you, as a citizen of this country, wish to vote against same-sex marriage, I understand that, respect that and will even consider voting with you. But all in perspective.

Oh... and modesty was just one of several immoral offenses I listed, but you seem stuck on that one.

List any of the other offenses, and the point is the same. God did destroy a kingdom for homosexuality, as Jude noted in his epistle.


Jud 1:7 KJV Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Fire destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha. We read of that being an example o vengeance of eternal fire. And it was specifically homosexuality that Jude referred to.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So does that mean you would vote YES for gay marriage? I did not see a plain yes or no.

For the third time, I can't say it "slow" since I'm typing, so maybe just read it realllllly slow: A vote against Proposition 8 would not be a vote "for" gay marriage. Furthermore, a vote allowing the legal protection of adulterers and fornicators is not a vote "for" adultery and fornication, it's a vote for the legal protection and liberty of those to live an immoral lifestyle if they so choose.

It keeps the nation in which we live free from destruction, for one!

Oh goodness. *rolls eyes* Won't even go down that insane road with you....

List any of the other offenses, and the point is the same. God did destroy a kingdom for homosexuality, as Jude noted in his epistle.
God did not destroy a kingdom only for homosexuality. And if you live in constant fear of God's destruction of the ungodly, I don't know what to tell you. If you see time and place we live in as a constant vulnerable opportunity for us to be smitten in judgement (even as Mercy has never been so available and even as so many follow after him), then we may be serving a different God? And FTR, allowing same-sex marriage does nothing for those having sex with each other. Nothing. So, I guess your Kingdom influence is little if this is your tactic. Maybe you suggest we start hanging homosexuals again and charging them with sodomy laws. Then we won't be judged as a nation!

Jud 1:7 KJV Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

So let's look at "strange flesh" all day. But don't forget "fornication" is here as well. Outlaw that too?

Fire destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha. We read of that being an example o vengeance of eternal fire. And it was specifically homosexuality that Jude referred to. Good luck proving that point. More stretchy than spandex.

Sounds like Mike has a theology that says God still destroys an entire people for the sins of some. Sounds like Mike has a theology that says God hates sin, but will only really get ticked off by homosexuality. Sounds like Mike believes God destroyed an entire nation -- not for rebellion, sexual idolatry, fornication, lying, murder, unspeakable evils.... but simply because guys had sex with other guys. Sounds like fundamentalist nonsense IMO.

[Socialite]

FTR, I think same-sex relationships are a grievous sin. But the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 4:13).

[Socialite]

Hey Mike: Is homosexuality a "greater" sin? Why do you think so?

(Careful to use the "abomination" argument)

[Socialite]

And it seems you've lost some context in your Jude citation:

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

Careful to dig into a "for example" something that it is not. If you want to know why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah let's turn to Genesis shall we?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Hey Mike: Is homosexuality a "greater" sin? Why do you think so?

(Careful to use the "abomination" argument)

Paul specifically said God gives people over due to it. No other sin is no described. It mars the very image of God unlike any other.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Sounds like Mike has a theology that says God still destroys an entire people for the sins of some. Sounds like Mike has a theology that says God hates sin, but will only really get ticked off by homosexuality. Sounds like Mike believes God destroyed an entire nation -- not for rebellion, sexual idolatry, fornication, lying, murder, unspeakable evils.... but simply because guys had sex with other guys. Sounds like fundamentalist nonsense IMO.

Mike has this and Mike has this. Let's not get personal. lol Can't we just discuss?

"Fornication" is SEXUAL SIN, and that includes homosexuality, and was Jude's intent, hence my words.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Paul specifically said God gives people over due to it. No other sin is no described. It mars the very image of God unlike any other.

So your answer is "yes?"

I didn't ask if this sin is the "final frontier" of being "given over." I've asked do you think it's the "greatest of sins?" Scripture please.

Does us living in rebellion to God, giving our bodies over to any unclean practice mar the image of God? And regardless of what it does, all sins are "outside the Kingdom."

Notice in 1 Corithians, homosexuality is listed with all the others.