Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I have some views on all of this,but I don't feel up to posting much today.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by mfblume

John 20:29 KJV Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Seeing is not believing. Believe and then see!

Anything God does must be taken from the Word and BELIEVED BEFORE we can see it.

Good point, we must receive the promises by faith, including the promise of the Holy Ghost, some people may take a while to reach the point where they really expect God to fill them.

Lack of complete repentence is another possible hinderance to receiving the Holy Ghost quickly.

The mindset with many people in today's world is to get whatever you want to give them, but don't ask them to change how they live, they may want the Holy Ghost, but some of them might not have reached the point of being willing to change how they live, or perhaps they might have some unforgiveness in their heart, someone they have not forgiven.

There is a tract called "Keys to receiving the Holy Ghost" that can help people be aware of what might be hindering them from receiving.

In the book of Acts, after hearing Peter preach, some of those who heard the message said -

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Note that they were "pricked in their heart", they felt deep conviction that led them to be willing to do what they needed to do.

How many people try to receive the Holy Ghost without first reaching the point of such Godly sorrow that they cry out with tears of repentence and with a willing heart that says "what shall I do ?"

In today's world the public in general is probally dull of hearing, they have been so engulfed with "christian" religions all their life and many have a false view of what church is (a solemn and dry ritual) that they might have a hard time accepting what it really should be like, whereas back in the apostles day this was a new and fresh thing they had not heard before.

Having said that, there have been, and still are, large services in various parts of the world where multitudes of people do get the Holy Ghost all on the same day, I remember hearing how Billy Cole preached at some of them.

God is still willing to give anyone the Holy Ghost immediately on the spot without having to tarry for days or even hours, but we must have our hearts where it needs to be in order to receive, and some people take longer to get their hearts and mindset to where it is like those in Acts 2:37.

[Digging4Truth]

Now somebody remind me.

What scriptural basis does one glean the concept that tongues is the absolute and required initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost?

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Bro Gary,

In regards to what I have highlighted from your post, how can anyone make the argument that if a person does not speak in tongues they are not saved?

To make that argument would be to make an unbiblical argument-- an argument that does not hold water, when the Bible is taken in whole and not piecemeal.

Simple, we know that receiving the Holy Ghost is a must to be saved, along with repentence and baptism in Jesus name (being born of water and of the Spirit) and we believe that tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

Of course those of you who don't accept tongues as being the initial evidence are not going to accept that anyhow.

Again, to clarify, "tongues" in and of itself does not save you, it is simply the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost which is necessary.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Good point, we must receive the promises by faith, including the promise of the Holy Ghost, some people may take a while to reach the point where they really expect God to fill them.

Lack of complete repentence is another possible hinderance to receiving the Holy Ghost quickly.

The mindset with many people in today's world is to get whatever you want to give them, but don't ask them to change how they live, they may want the Holy Ghost, but some of them might not have reached the point of being willing to change how they live, or perhaps they might have some unforgiveness in their heart, someone they have not forgiven.

There is a tract called "Keys to receiving the Holy Ghost" that can help people be aware of what might be hindering them from receiving.

In the book of Acts, after hearing Peter preach, some of those who heard the message said -

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Note that they were "pricked in their heart", they felt deep conviction that led them to be willing to do what they needed to do.

How many people try to receive the Holy Ghost without first reaching the point of such Godly sorrow that they cry out with tears of repentence and with a willing heart that says "what shall I do ?"

In today's world the public in general is probally dull of hearing, they have been so engulfed with "christian" religions all their life and many have a false view of what church is (a solemn and dry ritual) that they might have a hard time accepting what it really should be like, whereas back in the apostles day this was a new and fresh thing they had not heard before.

Having said that, there have been, and still are, large services in various parts of the world where multitudes of people do get the Holy Ghost all on the same day, I remember hearing how Billy Cole preached at some of them.

God is still willing to give anyone the Holy Ghost immediately on the spot without having to tarry for days or even hours, but we must have our hearts where it needs to be in order to receive, and some people take longer to get their hearts and mindset to where it is like those in Acts 2:37.

I absolutely agree with your post and especially that in bold. I was praying for a young woman that we had given a Bible study to. She had repented and was baptized. It was so hard for me to see her pray and not be filled with the Holy Ghost. I prayed and God spoke to me about the passage on the wineskins - old and new. He spoke to me about her need to empty herself out in order to be filled as an old wineskin would not hold new wine. So, at repentance, I'm thinking she didn't realize, from her background, exactly what that entailed. She was eventually filled with the Holy Ghost.

My husband and I were talking about how "repentance" and people these days who don't seem to take that as serious as they should or have in bygone days.

I wonder (although I'm sure there are many various reasons) if it's all the church hype and feel good type services people are seeking? It seems to be all about making ME feel good instead of coming to church to feel after God to see who He wants to touch, bless, set free, and heal, etc. for each service. It seems we are in a very narcissistic society which is bleeding into the church.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Simple, we know that receiving the Holy Ghost is a must to be saved, along with repentence and baptism in Jesus name (being born of water and of the Spirit) and we believe that tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

Of course those of you who don't accept tongues as being the initial evidence are not going to accept that anyhow.

Again, to clarify, "tongues" in and of itself does not save you, it is simply the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost which is necessary.

I used to accept this, now I don't.

If tongues does not save, then why use it as a benchmark as to whether or not a person is saved?


Furthermore, our AoG and COGIC brothers who have not been baptized in Jesus Name, who speak in tongues, do live a holy life-- are they not saved too?

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I absolutely agree with your post and especially that in bold. I was praying for a young woman that we had given a Bible study to. She had repented and was baptized. It was so hard for me to see her pray and not be filled with the Holy Ghost. I prayed and God spoke to me about the passage on the wineskins - old and new. He spoke to me about her need to empty herself out in order to be filled as an old wineskin would not hold new wine. So, at repentance, I'm thinking she didn't realize, from her background, exactly what that entailed. She was eventually filled with the Holy Ghost.

My husband and I were talking about how "repentance" and people these days who don't seem to take that as serious as they should or have in bygone days.

I wonder (although I'm sure there are many various reasons) if it's all the church hype and feel good type services people are seeking? It seems to be all about making ME feel good instead of coming to church to feel after God to see who He wants to touch, bless, set free, and heal, etc. for each service. It seems we are in a very narcissistic society which is bleeding into the church.

You brought out a very good point, many people don't have a true understanding of all what true repentence really infers.

Many think it is merely being sorry for past sins, but the word "repent" actually means to do an "about face" (I did enough of those during boot camp in the military :-)

We need to not only have a deep sorrow for past sins, but a complete willingness to change so we live a live pleasing to Him in obedience to His Word, and not think we can continue to do any of the things we used to that are contrary to His Word.

Another thing is that we must truely hunger and thirst to be filled, it can't simply be a casual thing we do simply because someone said it was necessary, like pulling a first-aid kit off the shelf to fix a boo-boo.

God wants us to so very much desire Him to be part of our lives, and not just simply trying to meet a requirement.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Psalms 42:1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

[Hoovie]

Gary, the issue does seem to become muddled when we know and see many non-tongue speakers who seem to have turned "about face" and are completely willing to live the Christian life.

Their desire and hunger for God is also apparent.

Do you not know such people? I know many - even pastors and workers in the Kingdom.

Also, there are those who do speak in tongues (and by no means most or all) who have not turned "about face" nor appear hungry for God...

It's because of what I indicated above that I tend to treat the tongues issue as a non sequitur...

I simply don't see the "evidence" for the case you are making.

Originally Posted by BroGary

You brought out a very good point, many people don't have a true understanding of all what true repentence really infers.

Many think it is merely being sorry for past sins, but the word "repent" actually means to do an "about face" (I did enough of those during boot camp in the military :-)

We need to not only have a deep sorrow for past sins, but a complete willingness to change so we live a live pleasing to Him in obedience to His Word, and not think we can continue to do any of the things we used to that are contrary to His Word.

Another thing is that we must truely hunger and thirst to be filled, it can't simply be a casual thing we do simply because someone said it was necessary, like pulling a first-aid kit off the shelf to fix a boo-boo.

God wants us to so very much desire Him to be part of our lives, and not just simply trying to meet a requirement.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Psalms 42:1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Now somebody remind me.

What scriptural basis does one glean the concept that tongues is the absolute and required initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost?

There are about 20 records of people being converted in the Book of Acts. In some cases it is recorded that these conversions were accompanied with or followed by water baptism and/or Spirit Baptism. In the cases where it is recorded that people received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (or the Spirit came upon them, or the Spirit fell upon them, or they "received" (made room for) the Holy Spirit, or they were filled with the Spirit) it mentions or infers that speaking with tongues accompanied or followed that experience. Based on these examples we have come up with the "initial physical evidence" doctrine. The "initial physical evidence" doctrine states that speaking with tongues is "the initial physical evidence" of receiving the Holy Ghost Baptism. Some Christians think that there is enough scriptural support for this doctrine and some do not. Most Apostolic/Charismatic/Pentecostal people believe in the "initial physical evidence" doctrine. Among those who believe in the "initial physical evidence" doctrine there is a small minority who believe that the Holy Ghost Baptism is the same as being born of the Spirit so these folks basically believe that unless a person has spoken with tongues, that person is not born of the Spirit or is not saved.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Gary, the issue does seem to become muddled when we know and see many non-tongue speakers who seem to have turned "about face" and are completely willing to live the Christian life.

Their desire and hunger for God is also apparent.

Do you not know such people? I know many - even pastors and workers in the Kingdom.

Also, there are those who do speak in tongues (and by no means most or all) who have not turned "about face" nor appear hungry for God...

It's because of what I indicated above that I tend to treat the tongues issue as a non sequitur...

I simply don't see the "evidence" for the case you are making.

No offense taken bro, we will have to politely agree to disagree with no hard feelings.

Having said that, there are likely some out there who didn't do an about face who did not speak in genuine tongues (either taught, or imitated what they thought they was supposed to say) or some who may had temporairly done an about face, got the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of tongues, then went back to their old ways, "backslidden on the pews")

Those who seemed to do an about face and have a changed life does not mean they received the Holy Ghost, there are people who become devout muslims, mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, ect. and have a changed life, giving up alcohol, ect. so that alone is not enough evidence.

Anyhow, what others and myself have said in defense of tongues being the initial evidence I am not going to rehash here in this post, but because of all that and probally some stuff I can't think of right now I am convinced tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

Again, no hard feelings, we simply agree to disagree on this particular point :-)