Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

If you don't mind I would like to use this portion of your post to say something...

I had mentioned before that if our paradigm is that one has not received the Holy Ghost until they have spoken in tongues then this will be what we recall because each person who did not speak in tongues is deemed to have not received the Holy Ghost. It is a self fulfilling teaching.

But my thought is this. I have seen people go to the altar... mean people... hateful people... terribly sinful people.

I have seen them "receive a blessing" at the altar crying and repenting before God.
I have seen people get up from that altar changed.
I have seen an attitude in them and on their faces I had never seen before.
I have seen a grumpy and hateful person all of a sudden become a happy and loving person.
I have seen a person who smoked and drank and could never give it up quit that night.

But they didn't speak in tongues.

And people congratulated them on their "blessing" and told them... you keep praying and God will fill you with the Holy Ghost. They were dismayed at this because they thought they DID receive the Holy Ghost.

Oh no... they are told. You received a blessing but when you receive the Holy Ghost you will speak in tongues and it will be so much better than what you received tonight.

I have seen them try to receive this Holy Ghost and finally quit from such deep discouragement that they couldn't receive the Holy Ghost and when they attended for the last time the record still stood... nobody ever received the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues.

I saw lots of signs... some even biblically explicit.

I saw love one to another.
I saw a miraculous ability to quit things that had held them captive for years.
I saw a change in spirit, attitude and nature.
I saw someone who was not the same as they used to be.
I saw someone who had received power after that this "blessing" had come upon them.

But since no one saw tongues doubt was planted in their heart and it destroyed them.
But... at the end of the day... it can still be said by those who are so fond of saying it... In all my years of living for God no one has ever received the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues.

I think we really need to take another look at this doctrine.

Exactly. Which is why this doctrine not only needs to be exposed, but taught AGAINST.

3 steppers are fond of teaching about how damnable it is to teach people they are saved simply by "accepting the Lord", yet their doctrine does for the saint, what easy believism does for the sinner. The end result is both have been lied to.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Amen, and some may say people have had a change in their lives without speaking in tongues, but even people who start following a false religion, even Islam, can have a change in their life and stop drinking, ect., so just having a change is not evidence enough, God has a specific initial evidence that would leave no doubt. Repentence brings a change, but repentence alone will not save anyone, they must also be born of the water and the Spirit.

It is like unto when a baby is conceived and is like when the seed of the Word is germinated by faith, but the actual birth is deemed successful when you hear the initial evidence of the new born baby crying, likewise we know a new "babe in Christ" is born of the Spirit when we hear them joyfully "crying" out in tongues :-)

Bologna

the evidence isn't "crying" in tongues, the evidence is the fruit of the Spirit. MAybe only my Bible says "you shall know them by their fruits."????

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

And we are to go on emotional experiences of people instead of standing on what the Word of God is saying? I'm not willing to do that.

that is exactly what you're doing PO

You are basing doctrine on your EXPERIENCE.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It is all about the heart which is spoken of in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 - likening our lives/heart to those of the wayside, stony places, thorns, and good ground. Only God knows, at the end of the day, as some water, some plant, but God gives the increase. That could take years.

The Word of God still stands in the midst of this. I'm not going to interpret the Word of God on the experiences of various people, unless, that experience can be found to line up with the Word of God.

PO, out of curiousity, what is your favorite church HYMN?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by DAII

Zen Apostolicism.

DA you haven't copyrighted this term yet have you?

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Exactly. Which is why this doctrine not only needs to be exposed, but taught AGAINST.

3 steppers are fond of teaching about how damnable it is to teach people they are saved simply by "accepting the Lord", yet their doctrine does for the saint, what easy believism does for the sinner. The end result is both have been lied to.

What are you going to say to those who don't make it IF because of your influence they don't get the Holy Ghost and they say why did you tell me that it wasn't necessary to speak in tongues as the initial evidence ?

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Bologna

the evidence isn't "crying" in tongues, the evidence is the fruit of the Spirit. MAybe only my Bible says "you shall know them by their fruits."????

Sorry but anyone can show some fruit of good behaviour without the Holy Ghost, that is why God choose to have tongues as the initial evidence.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 10:45,46 ....was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues....

Isaiah 28:11,12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Many years ago, a young mother and friend came to church with me. She had two small children and was divorced. As she continued to come to church, she eventually went to the alter and later wanted to be baptized. My late father baptized her in Jesus Name. My mother and I went with her to the room where she was to prepare to be baptized. After being baptized, we returned to the room so she could change into dry clothing. Mom and I kept praying and she also. All of a sudden she got a good blessing and began to shout. She definitely was feeling good. She announced she received the Holy Ghost. Although she received a good blessing, there was no evidence that she had spoken in tongues. Mom and I both noted that!

This precious lady immediately started wearing dresses, no make-up, jewelry, etc. Sold her TV. No one told her to do these things. She did them on her own. She was not mature spiritually to understand why she was doing this. She was just doing/trying to pattern after others. Some people do things because others do them. Some people do things because they feel it is the right thing to do. Others do things because of who they are.

I took her and her children with me to campmeeting. Paid all her expenses. As we were nearing our city coming home, she cried and said, "I just wish I could stay there from now on. It's like another world at campmeeting." We can go somewhere for a great family, etc., gathering and be sad when we have to leave. But we still live in this world. WE'RE NOT HOME YET!

She continued to come to church with her children, then got a new job with the local police department. She started missing church and then quit alto gether. One day I saw her, in her uniform, heavy make-up, etc. I saw her later at the super-
market. She said she was happy. Eventually she went to work for the county sheriff's department and I seldom saw her. Then she moved to the county seat, continuing to work for the sheriff's department.

Her children grew up and the daughter married a catholic boy. Her son went to a Baptist Bible school. She asked the local Baptist minister to give a recommendation for the school. He did so. (she had been raised Baptist). Years later I ran into him at an outlet mall where he worked. He started telling me he was ordained as a Baptist minister. Started telling me about what was wrong with our faith.

Later I made contact with her, and two of our daughters and I met in her city for lunch. Her two children (grown now) were there too. The daughter with her husband and baby. The mother expressed to me that she was concerned that her grandbaby would be raised catholic. We had a pleasant time and took pictures, etc. We have prayed for her and her family all these years. Her son can be found in the gay parades. Very actively involved in the gay movement. My late father used to say, "There are alternatives to obeying TRUTH"!

I wonder how many, through the years, even in Pentecost, received a blessing at the entrance of the Kingdom, but did not press on into the kingdom. Perhaps similiar to a child being born. Some get to the entrance of the womb/tomb, and give up. I've seen people that appeared to be well on their way to receiving the Holy Ghost and suddenly give up. Quit and refuse to go any farther. I believe we cheat ourselves when we do not press on until we have the joy and the evidence that we have truly been born again, of water and of the Spirit.

Not long ago I once again connected with this lady AND her two children, via Facebook. I pray that one day she will realize that a onetime blessing is not sufficient for a lifetime! Eternity??

Could we compare the Holy Ghost as the down payment/earnest money,put in escrow, until the full purchace is completed at the appointed time of the closing. The evidence of things not seen yet, but by faith we wait for it. After the "CLOSING", we are given full possession.

Falla39

FEAR TACTICS!!!!!!!

IF YOU DON'T DO THIS, YOU FAMILY WILL FALL APART, YOU KIDS WILL END UP GAY, AND YOU'LL BE DAMNED!!!!!

What about the people who serve the Lord for years and never speak in tonuges?

Who reach the world for Christ, who give their live in missionary work, converts from Islam who are killed by their family members, yet they are faithful to Christ to the death.

WE SEEK FOR SCRIPTURAL DEBATE, AND ALL WE GET IS "IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT LIKE US YOUR LIFE WILL BE DESTROYED AND YOU'LL END UP IN HELL."

Enough.

What saith the scripture? Thats the only thing I concerned about.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Sorry but anyone can show some fruit of good behaviour without the Holy Ghost, that is why God choose to have tongues as the initial evidence.

So how do you explain those who DO SPEAK WITH TONGUES, yet are hateful, gossiping, have no self control, are unhappy, and yield pratically NO fruit of the Spirit, that is unless you count things as fruit that the Bible doesn't, such as tongues, dress codes, and the such like. None of those things are fruit in the Biblical sense, those many pulpits have attempted to classify them as such.

Originally Posted by BroGary

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

If speaking in tongues is absolutely required of ALL believers, so is casting out devils.

Furthermore, you stopped a verse too soon. If casting out devils is literal, and tongues is literal (as we would agree), and if tongues is for EVERY BELIEVER WITHOUT EXCEPTION, then so would also be drinking deadly poison and taking up snakes. IF we're going for ABSOLUTE BIBLICAL CHRISTIANTY, using your hermunetic, I would say the Snake Handlers have more to boast about.

Originally Posted by BroGary

Acts 10:45,46 ....was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues....

Again, you're not quoting the whole verse, I'll help you out it concludes "and magnify God."

They spoke in tongues yes, but they obviously spoke something intelligable to someone. Tongues isn't repeating sounds, nor unknown languages, but rather supernaturally bestowed UNLEARNED languages. Tongues is ALWAYS an actual language.

Originally Posted by BroGary

Isaiah 28:11,12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

I've known many who supposedly reached the stage of "stammering lips" but didn't speak in tongues, therefore didn't get the Holy Ghost. TONGUES isn't the rest, belief IS (Hebrews 4).

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by BroGary

What are you going to say to those who don't make it IF because of your influence they don't get the Holy Ghost and they say why did you tell me that it wasn't necessary to speak in tongues as the initial evidence ?

I don't discourage people against speaking in tongues, but I don't tell them their lost if they haven't. I encourage people to truly repent, deny themselves, take up their cross, and live holy. To continue in growth, not to remain babes in Christ, and that discipleship has a cost, and that anyone who trades on God's grace thinking the blood of Jesus is so that they continue on in their sins will suffer a horrible fate (Hebrews 10:26-30).

I encourage people to get every blessing that God has available to them, and to live the Christian life to the fullest. I do not encourage easy believism or cheap grace. If someone puts into action the things I teach, they will certainly speak in tongues if its Gods will. Its not his will that any should perish, and He who asks for a fish he will not give a serpant. I encourage people to repent, and to ask God for his Spirit. If they truly repent, and ask God for His Spirit, yet they don't speak in tongues, do you still think they will go to hell?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Sorry, but you can't simply ignore all the other verses that show that just believing and repentence alone is not enough to make Heaven.

As I mentioned in another discussion:

The Bible is clear that salvation takes more than JUST believing.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Other scriptures show repentance is a MUST.
Other scriptures show receiving the Holy Ghost is a MUST.
Other scriptures show enduring faithful to the end is a MUST.

IF a person JUST believes, but does not also repent, get baptized in Jesus name, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure faithful to the end, they will not be saved.

Let's stick with your theme:

Other scriptures show Communion is a MUST.
Other scriptures show Foot Washing is a MUST.
Other scriptures show Child Bearing is a MUST.
Other scriptures show Tithing is a MUST.