Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Many believe that the baptism of the Spirit is not necessary for salvation, but that tongues are THE initial evidence of this baptism. What are your thoughts on that?

The Holy Ghost is a gift.

We were told in Acts 2:38... Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. This scripture makes it clear that this is necessary for salvation.

The scripture goes on to say to those who fulfill these necessary things... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Every one who repents and is baptized in Jesus name shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Why would someone discuss the necessity of the gift? I don't even understand their thinking. It is a promise to those who repent and are baptized in Jesus name.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

The Holy Ghost is a gift.

We were told in Acts 2:38... Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. This scripture makes it clear that this is necessary for salvation.

The scripture goes on to say to those who fulfill these necessary things... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Every one who repents and is baptized in Jesus name shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Why would someone discuss the necessity of the gift? I don't even understand their thinking. It is a promise to those who repent and are baptized in Jesus name.

That did not answer my question as to whether or not tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That did not answer my question as to whether or not tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I thought that is what this whole discussion was about. I cannot conclusively say that tongues is THE (initial) evidence of the Holy Ghost.

I would think that was very clear by now.

[Sam]

12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.
Ephesians 1:12-14 NLT

If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that he is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God"
1 John 5:1 TLB

It is my understanding that when one turns to Jesus in faith, at that moment Jesus:
washes away all sin;
comes in to live as the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Christ;
births the person into the family of God;
identifies the new born child with His name and nature;
seals the believer with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption;
makes the person a new creature/creation in Christ;
baptizes/places the person into the Body of Christ;
writes his name in the book of life;
gives eternal life;
translates the person from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God;


After this initial justification/salvation/conversion/regeneration there are other benefits/blessings available such as:
water baptism
Holy Spirit Baptism
the written Word
fruit of the Spirit
gifts of the Spirit
growth
guidance

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Many believe that the baptism of the Spirit is not necessary for salvation, but that tongues are THE initial evidence of this baptism. What are your thoughts on that?

I have to say I have really enjoyed the discussions so far I've had on AFF...and I'm pretty sure there is NOT a single person who knows it all. Also, it seems like the issues of tongues and salvation have a lot of threads..lol. I believe it ALWAYS takes illumination from the HolySpirit to catch what the word is saying no matter how much we study Greek/Hebrew.

Having said that, I believe most (if not all) on here believe there is an experience which WE have come to term as the Baptism of the HolyGhost. Whether this experience is subsequent or pertinent to salvation is where I believe the crux of the matter lies?

(From my little understanding of scriptures), I'll love for us take a look at a couple of scriptures and I'll love to see what your intake of them..

Here goes.. (For full context, please read entire chapter prayerfully)

Acts 18
23 And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church, he went down to Antioch.

23And after he had spent some time there, he departed, and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples (I am of the opinion that disciples here refer to followers of Christ)

We see Paul travelling to places strengthening the disciples. The next time we hear of Paul is in chapter 19

Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (Note that the writer of Acts called these people Paul met disciples, which makes sense since Paul's mission on this journey was to strengthen the disciples.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost

We know the rest of the story from there...they got rebaptized, hands laid on, and spoke in tongues.

My line of reasoning here it seems that the HGB in this account was to strenghten those who were christian already...(Pls, let me know your opinion)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I thought that is what this whole discussion was about. I cannot conclusively say that tongues is THE (initial) evidence of the Holy Ghost.

I would think that was very clear by now.

I have not read all the many pages of this long thread. So when you said what you did, I asked you this particular question since you seemed to be equating tongues with salvation in what you do not believe rather than the actual doctrinal issue of tongues as evidence of Spirit baptism, whether the baptism is a gift or not.

This raises the question as to whether salvation is a gift, too.

[TGBTG]

Continued...

Also, if we consider Mark 16:16 and the story in Acts 8
Should we not consider those Samaritan folks saved before Peter and John came to lay hands on them?

I am not trying to say the HGB baptism is optional (obviously our Lord Jesus Christ thought it important for Him to tell the apostles to wait for the PROMISE of the Father).

It seems like we will not have a concesus on this issue. However, my question would be why would anyone NOT want to receive the Baptism of the HolyGhost even if it is not for salvation?

As for the initial evidence of the HGB being tongues..
I would say preach what Paul preached.

Paul said: Have you received the HolyGhost since you believed?

He did NOT say: Have you received the HolyGhost since you believed with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues?

If we preach it like Paul preached it, no one would have to tell the recepient that they received the HGB. They would know themselves because..

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

Moreover, anyone who received the HGB can testify to the dramatic change that occured in their lives...

[Sam]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

...
We know the rest of the story from there...they got rebaptized, hands laid on, and spoke in tongues.

My line of reasoning here it seems that the HGB in this account was to strenghten those who were christian already...(Pls, let me know your opinion)

Well I was a Christian, my life had been transformed. I was a new creature in Christ. My sins were forgiven and washed away. Jesus had come into my heart and sealed me with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. I fasted, prayed, witnessed and read my Bible. I had been baptized by immersion. I had confidence according to 1 John 5:1, 11-13 that I had eternal life. I was a church member --had been voted in by the other members. I was a Baptist, and like those Baptists in Acts 19:1-7, I found out about water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and about the Holy Ghost Baptism and I walked in that light. That happened over half a century ago.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Sam

Well I was a Christian, my life had been transformed. I was a new creature in Christ. My sins were forgiven and washed away. Jesus had come into my heart and sealed me with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. I fasted, prayed, witnessed and read my Bible. I had been baptized by immersion. I had confidence according to 1 John 5:1, 11-13 that I had eternal life. I was a church member --had been voted in by the other members. I was a Baptist, and like those Baptists in Acts 19:1-7, I found out about water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and about the Holy Ghost Baptism and I walked in that light. That happened over half a century ago.

Bro Sam,

That is exactly what I am seeing from Acts 19, that is Paul was going about strengthening those disciples (followers of Christ).

When Appollos met Priscilla and Aquila, they expounded more to him (to use your words: Aquila WALKED in that Light, Amen!!!)

As for me, the HGB was a dramatic point in my life. I was kinda flip flopy (lukewarm) in my Christian walk until I had the HGB. On the other hand, my mom was already a fire-brand christian, even before she got the HGB.

As for tongues, I would not call it evidence of the HGB. I see it more as accompanying me. Apart from tongues, I felt an overwhemling joy and boldness to speak about Christ like never before. So much love flooded my soul on that day. It was beyond the joy of my salvation experience. If I did not speak with tongues that day, the witness I had within me and the boldness for Christ was enough evidence for me. If you don't mind, could you share your experience of the HGB since yours was also subsequent to salvation?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

All thoughts from perception. Perception creates our reality for us sometimes.

Of 21 conversions in the word... 18 never mention tongues.

That's a lot of abortions right there.

Exactly.

Theres is alot of stories, analogies, and experiences being shared from those who favor initial evidence doctrine, but little to no scriptural support.