Command or commandments?

[Jack Shephard]

Rich- I was answering via my phone and some of the keys don't work too well. I meant the Bible is NOT contradictory. Sorry. I guess I don't see the irony in me being on the Apostolic Friends Forum. I am both Apostolic and a friend. Albeit I am not of the same mold as you are, but nevertheless I am as Apostolic as you. There were many things you listed are not commandments. Us Pentecostals like to take teachings and claim them to be commandments because it is easier to say it is a commandment than to allow grace to work. Us humans and especially us Pentecostals are great at not allowing grace to work. Sorry it took me a while to answer back. I trust you will try to rip apart what I just wrote, but the fact is that grace trumps suggestions any day of the week. Also the use of 'in the mouths of two or three' was WAY out of context.

[Rev.Richmond]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Rich- I was answering via my phone and some of the keys don't work too well. I meant the Bible is NOT contradictory. Sorry.
I guess I don't see the irony in me being on the Apostolic Friends Forum. I am both Apostolic and a friend. Albeit I am not of the same mold as you are, but nevertheless I am as Apostolic as you. There were many things you listed are not commandments. Us Pentecostals like to take teachings and claim them to be commandments because it is easier to say it is a commandment than to allow grace to work. Us humans and especially us Pentecostals are great at not allowing grace to work. Sorry it took me a while to answer back. I trust you will try to rip apart what I just wrote, but the fact is that grace trumps suggestions any day of the week. Also the use of 'in the mouths of two or three' was WAY out of context.

You guys that dont like scriptures that contradict your mindset always play the "out of context card." I try to live by the Bible and do my best to obey what is written therein rather than deceive myself thinking I will be saved while I hear the word but decline to do it. (James 1:23)

You still said "Look it doesn't matter how much any disects any verse because there is always another verse that seems to contradict it."
Not really. It still pays to rightly devide the Word. If you still dont want to, I can understand why.

You mentioned that "grace (always) trumps suggestions." I cringe to think what you may privatly interprit as "suggestions." Holliness? Repentance? Flee fornication? No matter; without holiness no man shall see the Lord. If someone is foolish enough to make that optional, just so the flesh isnt too uncomfortable, they need a psych eval. But grace will make up the differance if we choose to willingly disreguard scriptures? Is this also what you believe? If so, you are farther gone that I thought. I truly hope not. No more sacrifice for sin....open shame...continue in sin that grace may abound?God forbid...these are just a few of the scriptures that come to mind.

STILL:ALL SCRIPTURE IS...PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE...REPROOF...INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS. If you choose to not profit from it, fine. If you choose not to be isntructed by it, that too is your decision. You are not the first or last to exemplify these (out of context, no doubt) scriptures that were also given by inspiration of God: Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Pro 5:12 ...How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; Pro 15:10 [10] Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.Isa 28:9 [9] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?...

Continue believing, if you do, that not all scripture holds the same weight and that the work of grace negates the importance of obediance, but you didnt learn that from His Word. (Eph 4:20: But ye have not so learned Christ) <-- a little out of context. There, I gave ya one.

Take care. I have enjoyed the conversation.

ps: Friend, please don't forget or ignore what God said..."all scripture."

[/conversation]

[Rob McKee]

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

You guys that dont like scriptures that contradict your mindset always play the "out of context card." I try to live by the Bible and do my best to obey what is written therein rather than deceive myself thinking I will be saved while I hear the word but decline to do it. (James 1:23)

You still said "Look it doesn't matter how much any disects any verse because there is always another verse that seems to contradict it."
Not really. It still pays to rightly devide the Word. If you still dont want to, I can understand why.

You mentioned that "grace (always) trumps suggestions." I cringe to think what you may privatly interprit as "suggestions." Holliness? Repentance? Flee fornication? No matter; without holiness no man shall see the Lord. If someone is foolish enough to make that optional, just so the flesh isnt too uncomfortable, they need a psych eval. But grace will make up the differance if we choose to willingly disreguard scriptures? Is this also what you believe? If so, you are farther gone that I thought. I truly hope not. No more sacrifice for sin....open shame...continue in sin that grace may abound?God forbid...these are just a few of the scriptures that come to mind.

STILL:ALL SCRIPTURE IS...PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE...REPROOF...INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS. If you choose to not profit from it, fine. If you choose not to be isntructed by it, that too is your decision. You are not the first or last to exemplify these (out of context, no doubt) scriptures that were also given by inspiration of God: Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Pro 5:12 ...How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; Pro 15:10 [10] Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.Isa 28:9 [9] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?...

Continue believing, if you do, that not all scripture holds the same weight and that the work of grace negates the importance of obediance, but you didnt learn that from His Word. (Eph 4:20: But ye have not so learned Christ) <-- a little out of context. There, I gave ya one.

Take care. I have enjoyed the conversation.

ps: Friend, please don't forget or ignore what God said..."all scripture."

[/conversation]

Good Post Bro Richmond...I'm with you.
Take note of all who argue the loudest...most were raised hearing and believing this, but had a bad experience with pastor who they felt judged them (and probably did). Many have been deeply hurt and cannot release it. You will never argue them into a change. We must pray that God gives us a "love for truth"... We must love people but NEVER more than we love truth.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Good Post Bro Richmond...I'm with you.
Take note of all who argue the loudest...most were raised hearing and believing this, but had a bad experience with pastor who they felt judged them (and probably did). Many have been deeply hurt and cannot release it. You will never argue them into a change. We must pray that God gives us a "love for truth"... We must love people but NEVER more than we love truth.

Truth? What is "Truth" to you?

I didn't have a bad experience I had a great experience. It happened in Segraves class on Romans in the early 90's. I realized that all this nonsense that had been packaged as truth was really just man made religion and much what was called truth was actual nothing more than just man made nonsense.

[Rob McKee]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Truth? What is "Truth" to you?

I didn't have a bad experience I had a great experience. It happened in Segraves class on Romans in the early 90's. I realized that all this nonsense that had been packaged as truth was really just man made religion and much what was called truth was actual nothing more than just man made nonsense.

LOL...I had a few of those classes in Bible College where I wasn't paying attention too. Don't feel bad...I'm sure it wasn't Bro Seagraves fault...when you don't want to be in class...almost everything sounds like foolishness.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

The spirit is subject unto the prophet.

And how does this have any relavance to us being subject to a pastor?

A dictator? Sounds like you have had some men in your life that were not quite fulfilling the call of a pastor very well. No wonder it's hard to submit to a man of God or even see the need to; real men of God are not dictators at all.
I think it futile, though I could inundate a post with the WHY we need spiritual leadership and accountability in our lives.

You are just building my case where do we get spiritual leadership? From a man? He has the same holy ghost I have how does this make him more spiritual then the rest of us?

God established it like that for a reason. Just because you or I may not understandy why, we do know He is looking out for us.

God established it like that? Where? In the OT? Quit looking through the eyes of your training and preconseived traditions, Maybe you think Moses was this example? Why because God used him to lead his people out of Egypt? Or maybe because God handed Moses the ten commandments. Which by the way he gave to the people who in turn took the teaching to thier children. Moses did not instruct the people in a pastoral capacity each family taught their own children.

Moses then became a mediator between disputes between the children of Isreal.

You can follow this patern all down the OT. They did not have pastors or even leaders as our churches are set up today. So where do you get God made this great change in NT times.

I may later bring more complete thoughts to the table and expound on more of your post; i hate just leaving most of it untouched, but I must for right now. I really need

Look forward to hearing what more you might bring to the table.

Hope your day is great.

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Good Post Bro Richmond...I'm with you.

Take note of all who argue the loudest...most were raised hearing and believing this, but had a bad experience with pastor who they felt judged them (and probably did).

Sorry Wrong I was the pastor card carring minister with UPCI for 10 Years assosiate minister with UPCI church for the next 10 years.
I am amazed at how quick UPCI people are to clasify someone they don't know based on their traditions.

Many have been deeply hurt and cannot release it.

Wrong again most people are smart enough that they question the doctrines and traditions preached by said holiness churches and realize they are not in the word of God and leave because the pastor will not see beyond his traditions and doctrines and bible classes that have been drilled into him as salvational.

More that two thirds of the people I have seen in my life that left over standards went on to find spirit filled non denomiational churches and grew in the spirit far beyond where they were in UPCI.

You will never argue them into a change. We must pray that God gives us a "love for truth"... We must love people but NEVER more than we love truth.

And as the question has been ask "What is truth?"

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And as the question has been ask "What is truth?"

I've become rather close to a few Muslim friends here at work. Over the past three or four weeks we've been discussing Islam and Christianity. One thing that stood out to me is how they see Christians. They see us arguing and fighting over everything, and they see this as a testimony that we are in error and confusion. Ali, a good friend, explained that he is disturbed that Christians put such an ephasis on creed or doctrine and not enough emphasis on prayer and inward holiness. He believes that not even God cares what we know, because we can never know it all, but rather God cares about how we live because that directly effects the entire world around us.

I began to really think about that. Many in our fellowship are so hung up on "the truth", man made standards, and getting the formula right... but we're neglecting that solid, quiet, resolve of inner holiness.

I just thought I'd throw this in.

[acerrak]

Whose Holiness? yours? No were not Holy, None is Holy But the Lord. The only thing that makes us Holy is God's Spirit. You sound like your trying to depend on yourself for some kinda of Good work, but are rightousness is like filthy rags.

[Rev.Richmond]

Originally Posted by acerrak

Whose Holiness? yours? No were not Holy, None is Holy But the Lord. The only thing that makes us Holy is God's Spirit. You sound like your trying to depend on yourself for some kinda of Good work, but are rightousness is like filthy rags.

You just took one word out of alllll that? no, not my holiness. I did not say that in any way. Nice failed attempt. I know that "are" righeousness is as filty rags. Maybe you should stay in the crib next time rather than trying to accuse people of foolishness.

Wow.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

You just took one word out of alllll that? no, not my holiness. I did not say that in any way. Nice failed attempt. I know that "are" righeousness is as filty rags. Maybe you should stay in the crib next time rather than trying to accuse people of foolishness.

Wow.

im just being honest, cause of your attitude, its really hard for me to take you serious. the emotcons and your remarks are childish.

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

I cringe to think what you may privatly interprit as "suggestions." Holliness? Repentance? Flee fornication? No matter; without holiness no man shall see the Lord. If someone is foolish enough to make that optional, just so the flesh isnt too uncomfortable, they need a psych eval. But grace will make up the differance if we choose to willingly disreguard scriptures? Is this also what you believe? If so, you are farther gone that I thought. I truly hope not. No more sacrifice for sin....open shame...continue in sin that grace may abound?God forbid...these are just a few of the scriptures that come to mind.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

and yes i pinpointed that.