Tithe-vs-Paying Your Bills

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're missing the entire point. First, the initial offerings given to the Apostles was a "startup effort" to provide for the needs of the body. Beyond that, we don't see a total surrender of all goods ever again in Scripture. However, we do see generous giving and communal body life wherein saints shared ALL that they had. All this was done without "tithe or burn" or "tithe or pew" teaching.

No I see a continual of it. All we have belongs to God. All the church is asking is 10% and offerings. I do not see it unreasonable or unbiblical to ASK, but to require for salvation, no.

However ministry must live by a different standard.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The issue is the same. Both are unbiblical commands. Do we obey them simply because one in "authority" issues them? Or do we do our duty to hold our authorities to the Scripture?

If we held our authorities to scripture, we could say the pastor would have a right to ask that one person with two houses sell their extra and give to the church.

Show me one person who is not faithful in at least 10% of their funds, time, etc that stays living for God. If you can't give the money, give something I would say to a widow. Paul said widows indeed were ones that prayed night and day and served the saints,etc.. full time committment.

Let me say one thing.. I disagree with a pastor who would take all tithes and not give back to the church, but any pastor who doesn't work and gives to the church is giving back of the tithes he receives. In most churches the pastor gives several fold more than the flock.

Hence the principle, to whom much is given, much is required.


To cap off this there isn't a biblical command to tithe in the NT, no where. there is just an example of faith. Neither is there a command not to smoke. In these matters where the Bible is silent there must be a leading of the Spirit in accordance with Bible principles. I do not see a pro for teaching tithe or hell, nor do I see a con for not requiring tithe of the saints.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

No it was a committment for his life

Chapter and verse please?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I'm not dealing with spiritual abuse here or extortion. I'm dealing with the principle itself.

The principle of compulsion?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I agree with this explanation here if it helps

http://www.gloriouschurch.com/html/T...ment-Tithe.asp

The Tithe Principle
The principle of tithes has been around since Genesis. It was codified in great detail under Moses. Even though many of the details in the Mosaic law have no practical application to us today, we must still extract the principles. Just because it is not discussed in the New Testament does not mean it has no relevance. Whereas we are explicitly told that the ceremonial law has been fulfilled in Jesus (He is our Sabbath, our Passover, our Pentecost, etc), there is no such statement concerning tithes. I believe tithing is one of those matters that was so well established in principle in the Old Testament that there was no need to address it directly in the New.

The principle underlying tithes is that God’s people are to honor Him with the first-fruits of their increase, the first ten percent. In our day, this is usually in the form of money. I do not believe tithes is a law per se. I believe it is a matter of faith. It is walking in the steps of the faith of Abraham (Hebrews 7:9-10; Romans 4:12).

I have carefully and faithfully brought my tithes into the local assembly for over 22 years now and have been blessed wonderfully, both financially and in every other way. I cannot say that I am wealthy, but I can say that I have always had enough to pay my bills and I have always had my basic needs supplied on time and in abundance.

I have taught the tithing principle as a matter of faith ever since I founded our assembly. I can say absolutely that those who are careful and faithful in bringing their first-fruits into the assembly are in general doing well spiritually and financially, and those who only give it when they can afford it are not. They tend to be inconsistent and seem to be always struggling in both areas.

I teach on tithes in our New Believers Class and I mention it about once a year in a general meeting. Everyone who is committed to our local assembly tithes. I have never considered it a “salvation issue” from the standpoint that since we are not saved by tithing, we cannot say that we are unsaved because we fail to tithe. Again, it is a matter of faith. At the same time, without faith it is impossible to please God.

I certainly agree in principle that 100% belongs to God. But I also believe that He has established the first ten percent as a way for His people to honor Him and as His method for financing the work of the local assembly. This is not to say that anyone is limited to ten percent. To think that you can spend everything you have left after tithes in any way that you want is just as much a law-mentality as thinking you have to pay ten percent to stay out of hell. We are saved by the blood of Jesus through the new birth. Everything else we do is merely what accompanies our salvation, not the basis of it (Hebrews 6:9).

I do not believe that all the tithes belong to a single individual (typically the pastor). This false doctrine is one of the strongest forces standing in the way of the acceptance and implementation of biblical elderships (“You mean I have to share the tithes!”). Tithes are for the support of ministry, not a particular individual.

How many times does the author say "I believe" instead of offering contextual hermaneutics and factual data on the practice being binding upon the Christian?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

If we held our authorities to scripture, we could say the pastor would have a right to ask that one person with two houses sell their extra and give to the church.

Show me one person who is not faithful in at least 10% of their funds, time, etc that stays living for God. If you can't give the money, give something I would say to a widow. Paul said widows indeed were ones that prayed night and day and served the saints,etc.. full time committment.

Let me say one thing.. I disagree with a pastor who would take all tithes and not give back to the church, but any pastor who doesn't work and gives to the church is giving back of the tithes he receives. In most churches the pastor gives several fold more than the flock.

Hence the principle, to whom much is given, much is required.


To cap off this there isn't a biblical command to tithe in the NT, no where. there is just an example of faith. Neither is there a command not to smoke. In these matters where the Bible is silent there must be a leading of the Spirit in accordance with Bible principles. I do not see a pro for teaching tithe or hell, nor do I see a con for not requiring tithe of the saints.

Extortion. To "require" money for membership and participation is unbiblical. As in one of my previous examples, you'd essentially bench John the Baptist or anyone else who had a vow of poverty or were too poor to contribute what you require. That's unChristian.

Church in America is "big business". Most Americans are woefully ignorant of history and even how the church thrives throughout the rest of the world.

For many of us, we're striving to return to biblical simplicity. For the rest... it's "business" as usual.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Chapter and verse please?

Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD [g] will be my God 22 and [h] this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth."

God kept giving to Jacob all his life.. He did not say all that you give me this one time.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

How many times does the author say "I believe" instead of offering contextual hermaneutics and factual data on the practice being binding upon the Christian?

He did both. He did say advocate binding but rather the principle is amicably applied to christians today but not forced.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Extortion. To "require" money for membership and participation is unbiblical. As in one of my previous examples, you'd essentially bench John the Baptist or anyone else who had a vow of poverty or were too poor to contribute what you require. That's unChristian.

Church in America is "big business". Most Americans are woefully ignorant of history and even how the church thrives throughout the rest of the world.

For many of us, we're striving to return to biblical simplicity. For the rest... it's "business" as usual.

Membership is unbiblical. we are baptized into the body, not paid to be there. Whatever church has hurt you in the past just because you couldn't pay tithes there and therefore unable to participate in the body is just plain sad but don't view all churches that way based on your experience. I never once said I would require for membership and participation but for LEADERSHIP of the church must be faithful in at least the tithe principal and thats for me only, not the whole body. However if a person is not giving their best, I would question their committment if I was a pastor and pray that the Lord would lead them further.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The principle of compulsion?

No the principle of faithfulness in giving to the ministry